Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _RockSlider »

Franktalk wrote:I have met about a dozen people in my life I would say walk in the spirit. Many more seek this condition yet are not there. But the vast majority of people are not on a path of spirituality. They can still love God and be very good people. Some hold high office in the church. They can still be good people. Yet they are spiritually blind. It is not sinful to be spiritually blinded. Some even cross back and forth from one day to the next. Peter is a classic example.
When I speak of spiritual things (which are rare) I am always careful not to give details because many things discerned spiritually are very difficult to understand and place in proper context. I do however speak a lot about the spiritual journey. I hope that one day something I say will cause someone to start and take that same path. It is not me that will change that person but God. I am but a tool in His hands. I do not know exactly what He expects of me as His servant but I am always ready to do His will.


I started down this path which you describe in terms and in desires that were true in my heart and familiar to the "eye's to see and ears to hear" that I sought for, and felt had achieved to fairly acute levels. My path was via the Temple and lasted for 8 years, two shifts a week, always in a 24 hour fast, being tutored, as it were by a few, like this dozen mentioned in your life, most of who were in their seventies, and had worked in the temple for 20 plus years.

My approach to the path was as if one on a quest, which quest led to the most painful experience in my life. I guess that like in the movie Indian Jones … somewhere along that path "I choose poorly"

Eight years of Thursday and Friday nights away from my wife and children, on a fool's quest.
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _RockSlider »

Ok, caught back up.

Franktalk,

Hopefully my previous post reflects that I might have some experience in what I think you are portraying in your posts in this thread.

You mentioned in one post - paraphrasing/in my interpretation... that it has been a while since you have had powerful dreams and/or visions but have maintained a gift of discernment.

Please discern away at this one:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9805
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Franktalk »

RockSlider wrote:Ok, caught back up.

Franktalk,

Hopefully my previous post reflects that I might have some experience in what I think you are portraying in your posts in this thread.

You mentioned in one post - paraphrasing/in my interpretation... that it has been a while since you have had powerful dreams and/or visions but have maintained a gift of discernment.

Please discern away at this one:
http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... f=1&t=9805


I read the link and do feel your pain. I have taken a different path. I don't trust any man. And that includes Joseph Smith. Unless I have a witness to some doctrine they are just words to me. I may study them and be able to parrot them back but I do not embrace them as truth unless they are witnessed. Now I have had very little witnessed to me in my life. I do study scripture and test everything against the whole of scripture. I use the fact that Peter drifted from God several times in the Bible and his drift is a test of men. Many people do not see that some of what Peter did is in error. When did Christ say kill my sheep and others. So each man is capable of vast error. Then we if we don't sort this out are doomed to a terrible path. I will tell you that some church doctrine fits with the Bible and I have embraced it. Like the pre-existence. But when details are presented I just place all of that stuff on a shelf. Much of what a son of God means is just like the blind men describing an elephant. If you embrace the description you will never get a correct picture. I will tell you that the Bible says don't trust men. I don't. From my viewpoint it seems to me that you trusted men. It is my belief that many men have said things in error and the church has not sorted it all out. But that study will take many years but I will not throw out the baby with the bath water. The correct message is important not the church. Once the church tries to place itself between you and God the church has gone apostate. I do not know enough to have an opinion on this at this time. I do know that the church is weak in some areas and I do see a circling of the wagons. But I see this coming from men and it has little to do with the core doctrines. Men will be men in all of their weakness.

I am in no rush to build up a knowledge of doctrine. If I had accepted wholesale everything said to me or written I am sure I would be where you were. That is not my path. I will tell you that much of what is written in scripture is a stumbling block. Some of it is hard to see. Many things are very loosely talked about and is open to wide interpretation. If indeed I find one of these I step over it and revisit it every once in a while. Sometime the verses mean nothing and the wide interpretation is for us to stumble. When Jesus says to Peter about the rock of the church is one such passage. Millions of men have died from the misread of this passage. The whole church (ancient) fell as a result. How many martyrs of Christ were burned by the church and now sit in heaven. If the ancient church which is of men could fall so far then just what makes us so sure that all of what is said in the church is correct? Each thing needs to be examined in the light. I call myself a Mormon because I do believe that the ancient church fell. I do believe the Gospel needed to be restored. But exactly what the detail is may not be what is taught. Time will tell. Check back in five years. I am open to be guided by the light of Christ but not by men.
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:But when details are presented I just place all of that stuff on a shelf.


The Keystone to Mormonism.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:The Keystone to Mormonism.


If you read the Bible it tells us not to believe men but to check everything out for our self. I do not see where what I do is wrong. I think I am following a good plan. One in which the number of errors in my beliefs might be small.

I am very honest to everyone I meet about what I do. I have not had one person in the church tell me I am wrong. I have told my Bishop that no matter what I hear I will check it out. I have told them I trust no man.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so.
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _RockSlider »

Franktalk wrote:I am in no rush to build up a knowledge of doctrine. If I had accepted wholesale everything said to me or written I am sure I would be where you were.


The focus of my weekly fasts was to move beyond the words and writings of men, and to have eyes to understand the symbolisms of the temple, and ears to hear the voice of God. To continue in a journey of advancing through the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood, to obtain the promise of knowing the mysteries of God, which could only be obtained via revelation.

But enough of that. Based on your answer here, I assume you are not an active, every Sunday attendee of your local ward. If you are over 35 years old, I assume you have had church discipline in your past (or were never an active Mormon). I'm still interested in your avatar, and wonder if any of my take is close, why you would care about a thread on members apostatizing from the church?

Having some better understanding of your actual experience with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would help me (and I assume others here) better understand what you are presenting.

P.S. Have you ever been to SLC and gazed upon Mount Olympus? If so did you note anything unusual?
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:The Keystone to Mormonism.


If you read the Bible it tells us not to believe men but to check everything out for our self. I do not see where what I do is wrong. I think I am following a good plan. One in which the number of errors in my beliefs might be small.


I'm not suggesting you are wrong.

My reference is to the OP.
Great many members are falling away from the Church because their intellect or integrity won't allow them to keep filling up the mental shelf where Mormons put the things that, when considered properly, cause people to question what they believe.

I suspect your Bishop, whilst happy for you to question everything, won't be encouraging the rest of his flock to follow your example.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _Franktalk »

Rockslider,

The avatar is a molecule. Just happens to be this shape. No big deal. It is interesting in that it binds cells together. I think it is laminin. Laid out flat this is what it should look like but in application they are all twisted up.

I do want to know what is happening to members. But I see the world mostly responsible for any decrease of faith. I do hope that all that leave find God in their new path. I don't think that the LDS church provides a path at all. No church does. It is a personal matter between you and God. If you read my posts you will see I question the absoluteness of some of the comments. I think that some comments are a big stretch. I also don't see how all of what is said is that important. I just figure many things have errors in them. I have always assumed so.

In my seeking God I can tell you that it is not in the church. The church is for fellowship. And of course some basic doctrines are taught. I find that most people don't know much about scripture but there are exceptions. I am new to the church but my expectations in having the church play a role is pretty low for my spiritual development. As I have said it will be years before I have an opinion on many things in the church. I am a recent member and have only been a Christian for around six years. I am 59. So most of my life was spent having fun in the world.
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _RockSlider »

Franktalk,

Born in 57 here, thanks for sharing that about yourself
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Re: Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Je

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

RockSlider wrote:Franktalk,

Born in 57 here, thanks for sharing that about yourself


Born in 45 here. Totally unrelated question. Do you have the reference to Joseph Smith declaring that there were no redheads in the celestial?
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
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