Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Fence Sitter]

So, even if every steel sword and tool had rusted away, we would find pottery characteristic of high heat. What we find in Mesoamerica is pottery created rather crudely by putting the wet pots in a pit, covering them with brush, and setting the brush on fire. Brush is added to the fire until the pottery has hardened. This is positive evidence that high-heat technology was not known in Mesoamerica, and the archaeological evidence of low-heat metal work confirms that the technology was unknown.

They had really good steel back then. We know this because the sword of Laben did not rust away in all those years before Joseph Smith found it in the stone box.

[_subgenius]

...I don't know about glass, but the KJV often translates bronze as steel, erroneously. That's probably why Joseph thought he'd be safe talking about steel swords.

often, yes...but not always, and it was likely that he "felt safe" for less nefarious reasons than you hope for.
but i am glad to see that you believe in things "so far as they are translated correctly" - thanks for the endorsement

What is the issue? steel has been "known" to be around since 13th century BC. - for example- Mount Adir Steel Pick found in Palestine (www.lassp.cornell.edu/sethna/Tweed/Mart ... story.html)
King Tut was buried with a steel dagger. Hittite King Hassitulis III writes about iron ore shipments in 1250 BC. Homer talks about the steel making process in the Odyssey. Even the Spanish noticed the Aztecs had iron, with steel simply being too difficult to mass produce, so it was not in use - besides wood obsidian was a much more efficient weapon for their purposes.
Furthermore, even a simple understanding of steel reveals that since steel is so susceptible to rust archaeological examples are not likely going to be found, unlike meteoric iron (the nickel protects the latter) .

i agree that a "bronze" theory is weak when used in conjunction with the notion of a bow. A bow made of bronze is very unlikely. Bronze does not behave like a "spring" - it is too malleable.

So, when one looks at the facts:
Steel was known to be around well before Nephi. Steel methods and materials really did not expand into the market until the shortage of tin from Britain, and steel was a somewhat-secret recipe and precious material. No wonder Nephi's family had a fit about that one particular bow.

[_Runtu]

Even the Spanish noticed the Aztecs had iron, with steel simply being too difficult to mass produce, so it was not in use - besides wood obsidian was a much more efficient weapon for their purposes.

It's important to note that metallurgy in Western Mexico seems to have developed after 600 AD and that was mostly copper, with some gold and silver (these are all require low heat levels to smelt). Low-heat smelting begins in Mesoamerica around 800 AD. Around 1200-1300 AD bronze (copper and tin alloy, specifically) emerges. Here's a nice little summary from archaeologist Scott Simmons of the University of North Carolina Wilmington:

The Maya Archaeometallurgy Project

So, the timelines are way off for Nephites and Jaredites.

Furthermore, even a simple understanding of steel reveals that since steel is so susceptible to rust archaeological examples are not likely going to be found, unlike meteoric iron (the nickel protects the latter) .

Again, this is irrelevant. Even if all the steel vanished, there would still be evidence of high-heat technology in other areas, such as pottery. There isn't.

i agree that a "bronze" theory is weak when used in conjunction with the notion of a bow. A bow made of bronze is very unlikely. Bronze does not behave like a "spring" - it is too malleable.

In other words, you're ruling out bronze. So, which low-temperature metal accounts for bows and other weapons?

So, when one looks at the facts:
Steel was known to be around well before Nephi.

Not in the Americas.

Steel methods and materials really did not expand into the market until the shortage of tin from Britain, and steel was a somewhat-secret recipe and precious material.

Also not in the Americas.

No wonder Nephi's family had a fit about that one particular bow.

I'd be upset if I broke my only steel bow.

[_bcspace]

It's important to note that metallurgy in Western Mexico seems to have developed after 600 AD and that was mostly copper, with some gold and silver (these are all require low heat levels to smelt). Low-heat smelting begins in Mesoamerica around 800 AD. Around 1200-1300 AD bronze (copper and tin alloy, specifically) emerges

Yes, I mentioned that early on. But alloys (of the softer metals) did exist in Mesoamerica during Book of Mormon times and copper use is also inside, so I don't think it unreasonable to think that the requisite alloys for something like steel may have existed in the context of a Mesoamerican LGT.

[_Runtu]

Yes, I mentioned that early on. But alloys (of the softer metals) did exist in Mesoamerica during Book of Mormon times and copper use is also inside, so I don't think it unreasonable to think that the requisite alloys for something like steel may have existed in the context of a Mesoamerican LGT.

Again, you need high-heat technology (such as is described in the Book of Mormon) to make alloys hard enough to produce weapons and tools. Alloys of softer metals are produced at lower temperatures, but they make terrible weapons and tools.

Copper, gold, and silver have similar melting points (1700-1900 F), whereas harder metals and alloys, such as iron and steel, require a higher temperature (~2700 F). The softer metals can be melted with wood fires, whereas the harder metals require a bellows or other heat-intensifier. Mesoamerica shows consistent evidence of the former and none of the latter.

[_bcspace]

Again, you need high-heat technology (such as is described in the Book of Mormon) to make alloys hard enough to produce weapons and tools. Alloys of softer metals are produced at lower temperatures, but they make terrible weapons and tools.

Copper, gold, and silver have similar melting points (1700-1900 F), whereas harder metals and alloys, such as iron and steel, require a higher temperature (~2700 F). The softer metals can be melted with wood fires, whereas the harder metals require a bellows or other heat-intensifier. Mesoamerica shows consistent evidence of the former and none of the latter.

Agreed, but most elements are there in or near the appropriate time slot. That is why I think it plausible. I highly doubt current thinking on ancient Mesoamerica is going to be the final word. Plus, as I mentioned before, I don't think one needs literal steel for Joseph Smith to be correct. One only needs something best described as steel or something that looks or feels like steel.

[_Runtu]

Agreed, but most elements are there in or near the appropriate time slot. That is why I think it plausible. I highly doubt current thinking on ancient Mesoamerica is going to be the final word. Plus, as I mentioned before, I don't think one needs literal steel for Joseph Smith to be correct. One only needs something best described as steel or something that looks or feels like steel.

I'll never say never, but based on what we know now, there is no evidence of high-heat technology in use during Book of Mormon times in the Americas. I suppose one can keep hoping.

Again, "steel" isn't the only anachronism; it's the smelting process that is described.

[_Buffalo]

Again, you need high-heat technology (such as is described in the Book of Mormon) to make alloys hard enough to produce weapons and tools. Alloys of softer metals are produced at lower temperatures, but they make terrible weapons and tools.

Copper, gold, and silver have similar melting points (1700-1900 F), whereas harder metals and alloys, such as iron and steel, require a higher temperature (~2700 F). The softer metals can be melted with wood fires, whereas the harder metals require a bellows or other heat-intensifier. Mesoamerica shows consistent evidence of the former and none of the latter.

Agreed, but most elements are there in or near the appropriate time slot. That is why I think it plausible. I highly doubt current thinking on ancient Mesoamerica is going to be the final word. Plus, as I mentioned before, I don't think one needs literal steel for Joseph Smith to be correct. One only needs something best described as steel or something that looks or feels like steel.

Right, so, steel then.

[_Runtu]

Right, so, steel then.

I'm trying to think of a hard metal that would look and feel like steel and be extracted from ore through high-temperature smelting.

[_Buffalo]

Right, so, steel then.

I'm trying to think of a hard metal that would look and feel like steel and be extracted from ore through high-temperature smelting.

Adamantium.