Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

[_ludwigm]

What facts?

The true but not useful ones.

Must not even be true else someone would name them.

For example:
1. Financial data (harmony's topic, and she is right)
2. Retention rate
From cumorah.com, about Hungary (been here, done that... the data seems to be real)

LDS Membership: 4,474 (2008)

Activity and Retention
Several large meetings have been held over the years. In 1996, a nationwide conference was held with about 1,000 in attendance.[16] In 2000, 100 members in eastern Hungary attended the groundbreaking of the first meetinghouse in the region.[17] 500 attended the first general conference broadcast to Hungary in 2001.[18] Institute outreach programs for fellowshipping young single adults began in the late 2000s in an effort to increase activity and marriages between Church members.[19] 660 attended the meeting to create the first stake. In 2007, young single adults in Budapest hosted a young single adult conference for members in Croatia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Serbia and Slovenia.[20] The average number of members per congregation has increased from 164 in 2000 to 235 in 2008. This increase is partially due to allowing some congregations to grow larger in size to become wards.
Many of the branches and wards have few active members. Szekasfehervar had 40 active members in early 2009. In mid-2009 the Nyiregyhaza Branch only had 10 active members, but used to have as many as 50 a few years before. In late 2009, the Miskolc Branch had 30 active members in their own large chapel. The Györ Ward had 50 of its 200 members active. The Eger Branch had less than 10 of the 90 members active. The Sopron Branch had around 25 active members. The Pecs Branch had over 40 active members. Over 600 attended the Budapest Hungary Stake conference in late 2009. The Bekescsaba Branch had less than 20 active members and one active, recently baptized priesthood holder in early 2010. In 1999, the mission office reported that 28% of members were active. At present, activity appears to stand at approximately 1,000, or 22% of total membership.

as far as I know, You can find the same rates everywhere in Europe.
Spain, Italy and Poland may be worse...

[cacheman]

The undertone of happiness in your words speaks volumes. You would take pleasure in the collapse of faith in someone you knew if it would help you win an argument on a post on some worthless blog.

There is no "undertone of happiness," and I do not "take pleasure in the collapse of faith." Nor did I bring up this experience to "win an argument." I am genuinely shocked and puzzled. Do not ascribe motivations to me, as you do not know me.

ETA: If there's one thing I know about losing faith in the LDS church, it is that the experience is devastating, painful, and has repercussions no one can imagine. I would not wish that on anyone, least of all my young friend and his family.

[_subgenius]

...
So, instead of bumping to ask me to retract what a General Authority said (which is the job of either Mopologists or the Church PR department), perhaps you should be pondering why the hasty retreat?

There you are..and i see you brought some excuses with you.

so, by your reasoning, you have no problem with adhering to Cynthia Nixon's original statement about her "choosing" to be gay, and her subsequent "clarification" was obviously a result of political pressure due to the firestorm from her original statement?
Or are you poised to be a Mopologist for the LGBT?

The fact that he has published what appears to be an opposite view very shortly after the debate generated on this board tells us a number of things:
1. Jensen received the feedback of this boards discussion.
2. Jensen misspoke either initially or is now trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

once again we see your rather limited list of how things "must be", yet the fail on so many levels of good reason.

for example, your list omits #3
3. Jensen used hyperbole to emphasize a point to the intended audience for his words, an audience not composed of cynics with an ax to grind against the church, but rather of basically good members. Then when spin doctors of bitterness took his words out of context and tried to imply them as "matter of fact", an obvious response was issued.
Your logic is almost incurable
Consider Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Your posts seem to be from that guy that sharpens the ax and insists that Christ "must be saying" that we have to cut off appendages, when all the while, in its actual context, a normal person realizes that Christ is actually illustrating the notion that sin does not "live" in the hand, or rather, He is bringing the Pharisees' view to its logical conclusion. But posts like yours seem to insist that context be ignored.

I am reminded of the parable spoken in Matthew 15:15-20

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
And Jesus said, Are you also yet without understanding?
Do you not yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the drain?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man.

Your posts seem to insist that we all focus on the dirty hands while being deaf to what "proceed out of the mouth".

[_Gentile Persuasion]

I agree. As long as MKJ is willing to continue hiding the facts, he should remain in the Brethren's good graces.

What facts?

The extent of the apostasy, as you mentioned in your earlier post. He has not shared the data that are of such concern to the Brethren.

[_Drifting]

...
So, instead of bumping to ask me to retract what a General Authority said (which is the job of either Mopologists or the Church PR department), perhaps you should be pondering why the hasty retreat?

There you are..and i see you brought some excuses with you.

so, by your reasoning, you have no problem with adhering to Cynthia Nixon's original statement about her "choosing" to be gay, and her subsequent "clarification" was obviously a result of political pressure due to the firestorm from her original statement?
Or are you poised to be a Mopologist for the LGBT?

The fact that he has published what appears to be an opposite view very shortly after the debate generated on this board tells us a number of things:
1. Jensen received the feedback of this boards discussion.
2. Jensen misspoke either initially or is now trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

once again we see your rather limited list of how things "must be", yet the fail on so many levels of good reason.

for example, your list omits #3
3. Jensen used hyperbole to emphasize a point to the intended audience for his words, an audience not composed of cynics with an ax to grind against the church, but rather of basically good members. Then when spin doctors of bitterness took his words out of context and tried to imply them as "matter of fact", an obvious response was issued.
Your logic is almost incurable
Consider Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Your posts seem to be from that guy that sharpens the ax and insists that Christ "must be saying" that we have to cut off appendages, when all the while, in its actual context, a normal person realizes that Christ is actually illustrating the notion that sin does not "live" in the hand, or rather, He is bringing the Pharisees' view to its logical conclusion. But posts like yours seem to insist that context be ignored.

I am reminded of the parable spoken in Matthew 15:15-20

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
And Jesus said, Are you also yet without understanding?
Do you not yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the drain?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man.

Your posts seem to insist that we all focus on the dirty hands while being deaf to what "proceed out of the mouth".

subgenius, both of us have no idea what you mean.

You asked me to retract what Jensen himself said - how am I supposed to do that?

I listed two possible conclusions and the only addition to those that you can find is that Jensen is prone to hyperbole?

Neither of us has any idea what your point is, nor how it relates to Jensens comments...

[_Franktalk]

There is no "undertone of happiness," and I do not "take pleasure in the collapse of faith." Nor did I bring up this experience to "win an argument." I am genuinely shocked and puzzled. Do not ascribe motivations to me, as you do not know me.

ETA: If there's one thing I know about losing faith in the LDS church, it is that the experience is devastating, painful, and has repercussions no one can imagine. I would not wish that on anyone, least of all my young friend and his family.

I see, I guess there were no Baptisms at your old ward. No new members who were happy to receive faith in Christ. Those you ignore but instead pick the unhappy story that just by chance supports your story line. If you were fair at all you would know how many came to Christ and how many left. But I guess that is not important to you. If indeed you are shocked and puzzled then tell me how you reached out to this person and comforted them in their time of need? Seeing a name on a list does not exactly give me the feeling that you truly cared for this person at all. Did you contact them? If so how did the conversation go? Did you say how great it is that he saw the truth and how dumb all those others are that still remain? Tell me the truth.

[_Runtu]

I see, I guess there were no Baptisms at your old ward. No new members who were happy to receive faith in Christ. Those you ignore but instead pick the unhappy story that just by chance supports your story line.

I "picked" the unhappy story because it happened last night.

If you were fair at all you would know how many came to Christ and how many left. But I guess that is not important to you.

Uh, when I saw his post last night, my first thought wasn't, Gee, I need to counteract this by finding out how many people in our ward came unto Christ.

If indeed you are shocked and puzzled then tell me how you reached out to this person and comforted them in their time of need? Seeing a name on a list does not exactly give me the feeling that you truly cared for this person at all. Did you contact them?

I sent him a message on Facebook late last night. Haven't heard back yet, but then he's in med school, so I don't imagine he has a lot of free time.

If so how did the conversation go? Did you say how great it is that he saw the truth and how dumb all those others are that still remain? Tell me the truth.

I have never in my life said that those who have left the church have seen the truth or that those who remain are dumb. Again, quit putting words in my mouth.

If you must know, my message simply said I was surprised to see him on the list and hoped that med school is going well. I also sent my regards to his wife and daughter.

I figured that, if he wanted to talk about it, I'd leave that to him.

[_Drifting]

There is no "undertone of happiness," and I do not "take pleasure in the collapse of faith." Nor did I bring up this experience to "win an argument." I am genuinely shocked and puzzled. Do not ascribe motivations to me, as you do not know me.

ETA: If there's one thing I know about losing faith in the LDS church, it is that the experience is devastating, painful, and has repercussions no one can imagine. I would not wish that on anyone, least of all my young friend and his family.

I see, I guess there were no Baptisms at your old ward. No new members who were happy to receive faith in Christ. Those you ignore but instead pick the unhappy story that just by chance supports your story line. If you were fair at all you would know how many came to Christ and how many left. But I guess that is not important to you. If indeed you are shocked and puzzled then tell me how you reached out to this person and comforted them in their time of need? Seeing a name on a list does not exactly give me the feeling that you truly cared for this person at all. Did you contact them? If so how did the conversation go? Did you say how great it is that he saw the truth and how dumb all those others are that still remain? Tell me the truth.

Franktalk, on another thread you bristled when our conversation ventured into personal territory. So why is it not okay for me to ask you personal stuff, whilst at the same time okay for you to ask Runtu?

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk, on another thread you bristled when our conversation ventured into personal territory. So why is it not okay for me to ask you personal stuff, whilst at the same time okay for you to ask Runtu?

If Runtu felt a need to contact his friend then I have no problem with that. But why post the story of his friend here? Did he ask the people on the thread to give support for his friend? No he did not. His using his personal relationship with this person to make a point is disgusting. He can whitewash it all he wants. He knows well why he posted it. And if it was innocent then he is lacking in judgment because it is obvious how it would be perceived.

[_Runtu]

If Runtu felt a need to contact his friend then I have no problem with that. But why post the story of his friend here? Did he ask the people on the thread to give support for his friend? No he did not. His using his personal relationship with this person to make a point is disgusting. He can whitewash it all he wants. He knows well why he posted it. And if it was innocent then he is lacking in judgment because it is obvious how it would be perceived.

I wasn't making a point, at least not the one you think. I was genuinely shocked, and for whatever reason, I shared it on this thread--probably because I thought of this discussion when I saw it. I am often lacking in judgment, and this may have been the case.