Mormon Infobia...

[_subgenius]

I believe it's your turn to answer or concede...

when necessary i have and will...but...
you have not affirmed your original statement of "The Church Leadership does not agree with you"
all you have done is post some affirmations (from decades ago) of what a prophet performs...says nothing about being more or less than a man.
( i think its becoming obvious that you are confusing prophecy with prophet - a game you often like to play)


please, try again.

http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... d?lang=eng

by scriptural definition, a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ and is moved by the Holy Ghost - Revelations 19:10

[_Drifting]

subby, how much of this stuff do you need?

Does this sound like the description of someone who is mostly a mere man...

4. President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
“I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1972, p. 99; or Ensign, July 1972, p. 88).

So, what information did you find out from non Church approved sources?

[Guest]

My point is that Ben and Franktalk are in error compared to the Church's position on this. Whilst the Church counsels people not to expect Prophets to be infallible they also say Prophets will not, cannot lead the Church astray and that you should follow the Prophet in all things.

Ya.... What's new....? All of us Mormons are in "error" about our own religion, but YOU the anti-mormon aren't.

We know what our Prophets teach, and it's NOT "only" what you think they do.

Hey Drifting..... You ever been to the Temple?
What is said in there concerning a wife following her husband?
It's the same principle. In as much as a Prophet follows God, we are to follow the Prophet.
Yes, in smaller things, that maybe we might disagree, we should follow, and if there is a sin it's on him, but when it concerns BIG things..... Mormonisms directly structured to ELIMINATE FALSE PROPHETS. If you can't understand that, then that is not our problem.

Here's an example..... I seriously disagree with the Churches recent decision concerning Politics and Church leaders, but especially their family. I think the Church crossed the line. But, that is a small thing, so I will comply with the instruction. But when it concerns with the things of God, I will kick a Prophets butt out, if he crosses the line.

Understand???

[_Drifting]

My point is that Ben and Franktalk are in error compared to the Church's position on this. Whilst the Church counsels people not to expect Prophets to be infallible they also say Prophets will not, cannot lead the Church astray and that you should follow the Prophet in all things.

Ya.... What's new....? All of us Mormons are in "error" about our own religion, but YOU the anti-mormon aren't.

We know what our Prophets teach, and it's NOT "only" what you think they do.

Hey Drifting..... You ever been to the Temple?
What is said in there concerning a wife following her husband?
It's the same principle. In as much as a Prophet follows God, we are to follow the Prophet.
Yes, in smalling things, that maybe we might disagree, we should follow, and if there is a sin it's on him, but when it concerns BIG things..... Mormonisms directly structured to ELIMINATE FALSE PROPHETS. If you can't understand that, then that is not our problem.

If you read the thread you will find its not me THAT misunderstands the Church's position. I don't agree WITH it, but I'm clear IN what the Church TEAChes.

[_Franktalk]

4. President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
“I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1972, p. 99; or Ensign, July 1972, p. 88).

This is reasonable, one could argue over when are they in council. The other point is it says united voice. This allows for disagreement between the men and then a gathering of the minds in pray to figure out what the will of the Lord is. The Apostles of Christ who walked the earth with Him had disagreements as well. They met and discussed the issues. Why would we expect anything else?

[_ldsfaqs]

If you read the thread you will find its not me THAT misunderstands the Church's position. I don't agree WITH it, but I'm clear IN what the Church TEAChes.

Your perversion of "The Church" and it's teachings by quote mining only PART of what it teaches, to try to put Mormonism in a box that fits YOUR ideology and interpretation of it, is not what the Church actually teaches.

See, you don't get it..... The anti-mormon who teaches that Mormonism is "works" based, is a liar, because he quotes mines only what he wants, not the actual truth which is Mormonism teaches BOTH Grace and Works as being necessary, and there is plenty of teachings on that subject and that it's only by Grace can we be saved.

You are doing the same kind of thing. You quote "part" of our teachings, entirely ignoring the rest which tells the actual doctrine, which is the doctrine Franktalk and the rest of us have been trying to explain to you.

You anti's do this in EVERYTHING..... You pervert and misrepresent, and then claim to be the actual truth teller.

[_Franktalk]

I think there is an assumption that the statement that a prophet will never lead the Church astray means that every word they utter comes from God. I assure you it does not. Let us take the case where a prophet tries to take the church and lead it astray. The Church is to test everything the leaders say against scripture. If the prophet drifts from the gospel the Church is to kick him out. If this happens the church was never led astray. I think this whole argument is just silly. The Lord can take the life of the prophet or any of us at any time. Or the Lord may test the Church to see if they follow the spirit and the gospel. If the Church remains true to the gospel the church can not be led astray no matter what happens. I think you anti's need to get a life.

[_Tobin]

If you read the thread you will find its not me THAT misunderstands the Church's position. I don't agree WITH it, but I'm clear IN what the Church TEAChes.

The "church" is made up of its members, so this whole office/unofficial discussion is stupid. Pronouncements from leaders that claim they can never be mistaken is more likely to greeted with a series of uncontrolled chuckles from me, but little else - no matter how many quotes you find just because the whole statement on it's face is ridiculous. A prophet is called of God and God can let us know when they are speaking for him. That I believe is the Mormon understanding of when a prophet speaks. Otherwise, they are speaking as any man and it is just their opinion. I'm very comfortable that many practicing Mormons would agree with that statement.

[_Franktalk]

The "church" is made up of its members, so this whole office/unofficial discussion is stupid. Pronouncements from leaders that claim they can never be mistaken is more likely to greeted with a series of uncontrolled chuckles from me, but little else - no matter how many quotes you find just because the whole statement on it's face is ridiculous. A prophet is called of God and God can let us know when they are speaking for him. That I believe is the Mormon understanding of when a prophet speaks. Otherwise, they are speaking as any man and it is just their opinion. I'm very comfortable that many practicing Mormons would agree with that statement.

What you say is described in scripture. The Church in various forms has existed and fallen. It has done the right thing and purged itself and there are times when a church invites error. All of this is written for us to learn. I agree, if the prophet were to tell me that God is a green kitten I would laugh. I would not believe that God became a cat.

Anyone who says that every word that comes from a leader is the word of God is trying to place a stumbling block in front of the members. Yes we are to obey the words of the prophet if they are from God. Sometimes people leave off the "if".

[_Franktalk]

Maybe some words of Brigham Young may shed some light on this issue.

“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way” ( Discourses of Brigham Young, 135).

and

“Why do people apostatize? You know we are on the ‘Old Ship Zion.’ We are in the midst of the ocean. A storm comes on, and, as sailors say, she labors very hard. ‘I am not going to stay here,’ says one; ‘I don’t believe this is the “Ship Zion.”’ ‘But we are in the midst of the ocean.’ ‘I don’t care, I am not going to stay here.’ Off goes the coat, and he jumps overboard. Will he not be drowned? Yes. So with those who leave this Church. It is the ‘Old Ship Zion,’ let us stay in it” ( Discourses of Brigham Young, 85).

It seems to me that Brigham Young had a fear that the leaders of the Church would not be tested with the spirit. I share that fear. But I will tell you that most people I have come across would not fail in testing their leaders. They love God not the Church. They love the Saints not the buildings.