Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_Benjamin McGuire]

Well this thread has certainly taken a ninety degree turn - I think that I will bow out of this discussion.

[_Runtu]

Well this thread has certainly taken a ninety degree turn - I think that I will bow out of this discussion.

I was about to say the same thing, and I'm the one who started it. LOL

[_SteelHead]

It is my fault. I was just trying to keep my discourse consistent with the level of rational and rigor of Tobin's assertions, manner and etiquette.

[_Drifting]

Technology and tools don't come out of a vacuum (there is always prior art). This is no doubt there were predecessors of the macahuitl and this is a good example of what is being discussed in these verses.

That is like saying that because the technology to make iPods didn't come out of a vacuum, there must have been a predecessor of the iPod in 1500.

There was, iPlates...

[_Tobin]

Technology and tools don't come out of a vacuum (there is always prior art). This is no doubt there were predecessors of the macahuitl and this is a good example of what is being discussed in these verses.

That is like saying that because the technology to make iPods didn't come out of a vacuum, there must have been a predecessor of the iPod in 1500.

What do you suppose they were using before 870 AD (that being the date of a depiction of one)? Spitballs? No one knows the actual date of when it was actually developed and there are depictions of machette and short sword like weapons dating from Stelas built in the 6th century BC. These weapons were presumably made of wood and combined with obsidian and such uses of these materials has been in progress undoubtedly in MesoAmerica for a very long time and NOT simply since 870 AD. Apparently there are no surviving copies to date, so we must go by depictions only.

Also, you make the same obvious error that we aren't talking about swords fashioned by Nephi. These are Lamanite weapons.

[_Runtu]

What do you suppose they were using before 870 AD (that being the date of a depiction of one)? Spitballs?

Actually, they used bows and arrows and stone or wood daggers. It doesn't really matter, though, because the smelting process is described in the Book of Mormon, and there simply is no evidence for it ever happening.

No one knows the actual date of when it was actually developed and there are depictions of machette and short sword like weapons dating from Stelas built in the 6th century BC. These weapons were presumably made of wood and combined with obsidian and such uses of these materials has been in progress undoubtedly in MesoAmerica for a very long time and NOT simply since 870 AD. Apparently there are no surviving copies to date, so we must go by depictions only.

Again, irrelevant, but your presumption of obsidian-edged wooden swords predating their actual introduction is just that: a presumption, and one based on no evidence whatsoever.

Also, you make the same obvious error that we aren't talking about swords fashioned by Nephi. These are Lamanite weapons.

No, it's not an obvious error. According to the Book of Mormon, both the Jaredites and the Nephites used smelted ores to make weapons and tools, and it specifically says that Nephi taught his people how to do this. If you read the Book of Mormon (maybe you haven't) the Lamanites and Nephites merged into one civilization. It wasn't until much later that Nephites were again distinguished from Lamanites. So, any Lamanite dissenters would still have had Nephite technology.

So, basically, what you are telling us is that a technology known for thousands of years was suddenly forgotten and abandoned without a trace.

[_Tobin]

Again, irrelevant, but your presumption of obsidian-edged wooden swords predating their actual introduction is just that: a presumption, and one based on no evidence whatsoever.

I would say the same thing about your statement. You have no evidence of when the first macuahuitl was made. It could have been the same day the Lamanites separated from the Nephites as far as we know.

No, it's not an obvious error. According to the Book of Mormon, both the Jaredites and the Nephites used smelted ores to make weapons and tools, and it specifically says that Nephi taught his people how to do this. If you read the Book of Mormon (maybe you haven't) the Lamanites and Nephites merged into one civilization. It wasn't until much later that Nephites were again distinguished from Lamanites. So, any Lamanite dissenters would still have had Nephite technology.

You are seriously confused. The verses in Alma pre-date when the civilizations combined. Also, you make huge assumptions about the availability of iron ore. It was most likely very difficult to obtain since most steel swords would have been made of rare ore deposits like meteorites.

So, basically, what you are telling us is that a technology known for thousands of years was suddenly forgotten and abandoned without a trace.

Another bad assumption is that iron swords would remain to this day or that the craft would not have been lost. We lost the secret to Roman cement for example until only a few years ago. When the Roman civilization declined, a great deal of technology progress was lost in fact and this is not unknown to have happened many times in the past when civilizations decline.

[_Runtu]

I would say the same thing about your statement. You have no evidence of when the first macuahuitl was made. It could have been the same day the Lamanites separated from the Nephites as far as we know.

Now you're just reaching. How do we know when certain technologies appeared? By the archaeological record. But again, this is not relevant at all. We're talking about a specific technology that is described as having been used for thousands of years.

You are seriously confused. The verses in Alma pre-date when the civilizations combined.

Your point being?

Also, you make huge assumptions about the availability of iron ore. It was most likely very difficult to obtain since most steel swords would have been made of rare ore deposits like meteorites.

I make no such assumptions. I simply take the text at its word when it describes how weapons were made and from what materials.

Another bad assumption is that iron swords would remain to this day or that the craft would not have been lost.

Again, anyone who has done any reading on the subject knows that the introduction of high-heat technology (in this case, bellows) has an impact on all sorts of different technologies, such as pottery. We do know how Mesoamericans made pottery, and it was from low-heat technologies. There simply are no signs of high-heat technology in use in Mesoamerica at the time frame of the Book of Mormon.

We lost the secret to Roman cement for example until only a few years ago. When the Roman civilization declined, a great deal of technology progress was lost in fact and this is not unknown to have happened many times in the past when civilizations decline.

Here's the difference: we know Roman concrete existed because it is still around. There is evidence of it. Introducing high-heat technology into a society affects a wide range of human activities and leaves evidence behind, beyond just the metal implements created. This is the problem with the Book of Mormon claim: it's not the steel but the technology described. There simply is no evidence that such technology was used, and in fact, the evidence shows the opposite.

It's fine to say, "Well, it just hasn't been discovered yet," but it's not OK to ignore what the text of the Book of Mormon says.

[_Tobin]

By the archaeological record.

What archaeological record? We have depictions and THAT IS ALL.

Your point being?

And my point still stands, the Lamanites did not have Nephite technology at that time. We are talking about weapons fashioned by Lamanties in the relevant verses.

Again, anyone who has done any reading on the subject knows that the introduction of high-heat technology (in this case, bellows) has an impact on all sorts of different technologies, such as pottery. We do know how Mesoamericans made pottery, and it was from low-heat technologies. There simply are no signs of high-heat technology in use in Mesoamerica at the time frame of the Book of Mormon.

Again you are making assumptions about how the technology was used in other areas and how generalized the knowledge was. Technology does not necessarily develop that way. It is known that iron forging was a specialized craft long before the bronze age ended (even in 600 BC), but it was known to a select set of people and not generally utilized until the era ended when it became generalized.

Here's the difference: we know Roman concrete existed because it is still around. There is evidence of it. Introducing high-heat technology into a society affects a wide range of human activities and leaves evidence behind, beyond just the metal implements created. This is the problem with the Book of Mormon claim: it's not the steel but the technology described. There simply is no evidence that such technology was used, and in fact, the evidence shows the opposite.

That is quite incorrect. For example, the ancient Greeks invented gears and a steam cannon. This did not lead to the industrial revolution. Isolated technologies are often lost (even in our civilization). Another example would be automata. Watch makers to display their craft in the 18th and early 19th century would create robots that could write poems, sign their name, and even draw. This did not lead to a break through in robotics or computing and eventually the craft was lost. It just isn't how technology works (even if surviving copies of the work exist).

[_SteelHead]

And anyone who knows anything on the subject knows that lamanites use adamantium and unobtanium. The evidence of which was later disintegrated by god.