Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

[_SteelHead]

Let's conduct a little thought experiment.

It is impossible to be a good Mormon and a democrat.

Is this a false dichotomy?

[_SteelHead]

Assuming that BC the author of this dichotomy says: "No it is a valid dichotomy."

Then let us impose it as a condition and follow some of the logical questions that emerge.

Given that Pres. Faust was a democrat, was he a good Mormon?

If yes, the the dichotomy is false and the author has no credibility.

Nevertheless:

If yes, did you BC ever raise your hand to sustain this member of the democrat party?
If so, does that not make you (who sustained Pres. Faust) by extension, supporting the democrat party?

"Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Romans 1:32

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So by BC's logic; is anyone who has raised a hand to sustain Pres. Faust as a prophet seer and revelator, also supported and affiliated with the democrats and as such are unworthy to enter the temple?

As the recommend question mentions individuals, by sustaining or agreeing with pres. Faust or his teachings are you not by extension supporting or agreeing with an individual who has practices contrary to those accepted by the church?

Do the same questions apply to Marlin K Jensen?

If no; Pres. Faust is not a good Mormon. Was he (pres. Faust) a false prophet?

Is Bro. Jensen (a Member of the 1st Quorum of the 70 and an self admitted democrat) a good Mormon?

So many questions emerge as the logical consequences of this proposition.

[_Tobin]

I have been a democrat all my life. I have known stake presidents, bishops and many good Mormons that were democrats. I may not be a "good" Mormon, but these were stake presidents and bishops. I think the whole idea of using one's political affiliations as a "test" of worthiness is blatantly absurd. For example, I now live in Nevada and have met Senator Reid and heard him speak. He seems like a very decent and good Mormon to me and he's the democratic majority leader of the US Senate and a patriotic American. I really think BC is in a very fringe minority of one in this instance and if he wasn't arguing so ardently about it - I'd consider it a complete joke. It certainly has nothing to do with Mormonism and only has to do with his own personal political beliefs.

[_SteelHead]

BC let me help you out.

Admit that your dichotomy is false, that one can be a democrat and a good moromon, take the hit to your credibility and move on with life.

Or

Admit that you stand fully behind your dichotomy and that by your assertion you feel that Pres. Faust as both a democrat and a Mormon was not a "good Mormon" and was hence a false prophet.

[_subgenius]

Incorrect. The church has come out STRONGLY in favor of illegal immigration.

Hey Bluffalot, hate to call you out on this one...but do you have any citations that support the claim of "STRONGLY"
and yes, citationS would likely be necessary to qualify such an emphatic adjective used by your post.

[_subgenius]

Let's conduct a little thought experiment.

It is impossible to be a good Mormon and a democrat.

Is this a false dichotomy?

no it is not, because it clearly illustrates bad logic and an obvious misunderstanding of what either term means.

[_SteelHead]

Fail for sub. Sub I suggest you Google "false dichotomy".

[_SteelHead]

A quick lesson for sub.

A dichotomy is the division of a whole into two distinct non overlapping subsets.

it is not possible to be a good Mormon and a democrat

Splits out good Mormons and democrats into two non overlapping subsets.

A false dichotomy is a dichotomy that is a false dilema. It is demonstrably false.

Pres. Faust is both by the accepted definition a "good Mormon" and a democrat.

Ergo the dichotomy is false, and BC was just talking out of his hiney.

[_Equality]

Back on topic: Joanna Brooks weighs in with some interesting numbers that shed light on the problem facing the LDS Church. I actually agree with some of the apologists who argue that ex-Mormons sometimes hyperbolize the problem. I'm somewhere in the middle. That is, I think the problem of people leaving the LDS church is worse than what the LDS church reports and what your typical faithful Mormon thinks (they think the church is the "fastest growing religion" for goodness' sakes) but not as bad as some breathless estimates from your RfMer types. The church is not going to collapse. I think the number of people who actually send in resignation letters in a given year, while higher than ten or twenty years ago, is nowhere near the 100,000 and up number I have heard bandied about in some ex-mo circles. The reality, I think, is that the church's growth has leveled off and it is currently stagnating. And the real problem is the trend--it's nothing like what Stark projected in the 80s. When Hinckley ascended to the President's chair, he said the church's biggest problem was rapid growth. Jensen, in his CYA comments following the publication of his candid comments at USU, reiterated that with the dubious claim that the church was growing so fast in Africa and Latin America that it had to put the brakes on baptisms. There is no way that "rapid growth" is the church's biggest problem. The church's biggest problem is its disappearing youth and the loss of stalwart members who discover the gap between what the church says about itself and its history and the reality (even if the numbers of such folks are not as high as some in the ex-mo world would like to think). All is not well in Zion, and even stalwart, faithful members of the church ought to be able to agree on that. What, exactly, the Brethren can or should do about it is, of course, open to wide debate. But that the problem exists should not be. If I were a faithful member aware of the facts that Brooks recites in her column, I would be extremely disheartened by the church's ostrich-head-in-the-sand article they ran in the Deseret News the other day. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, and it sure as hell ain't a viable strategy to deal with a real and growing problem. The mainstream LDS church, it appears, has its own "Lost Boys" to try to deal with, the ramifications of which may not be fully realized for decades to come.
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/5611/mormon_numbers_not_adding_up_|_culture_|_/

[_Franktalk]

The whole of religion rest on faith. The belief that the things visible were made by an unseen spiritual power and the head of those spiritual powers is our Father. Faith in the Father can move mountains. Faith in the Father allows one to see this world in proper context. Not with eyes that have limits and snare you with this crude reality. Faith takes away the sting of death. What the people have who are of this world is an attachment to death. They embrace death as the power that created them, an ever changing death they call evolution. A chain of death of which they are just the last link in the chain. To those who fear death I say cast death away and seek the power of life. Hold fast to the light of truth and transcend this physical world. Embrace the endless possibilities that lay just over the physical barrier. Don't be trapped by the world's logic and your senses. The barrier of the physical existence has no power over you unless you give it power. The powers of evil have no hold on you unless you allow them to rule you. Develop hope in what you can't see. Allow that hope to turn to love of the Father. We are His children, His spirit children who are on a very difficult path back to Him. Love Him as a child and trust Him with everything you are. Then live in faith as the world hates you and places before you treats and subjects you to trials, some even to death. Love all of the spirit children and see past the behavior of the physical body. Love the message of scripture but don't love scripture. It is God's message and He is alive. See the end which leads back to Father and hold fast to life in the eternities. Scripture contains all kinds of stumbling blocks and they will divert you to the world if you let them. Cast off anything which interferes with your path back to Father. Be strong in spirit and faith and don't allow yourself to be wise in the things of this world. Be a fool for Christ who is our guide and savior. Don't let death win you over, reject death and the net of entanglement which comes with death. Be the servant of your fellow man and a servant of God.

In faith all things are possible. The Church can be seen as an extension of the world or it can be a doorway to ordinances that are on the spiritual path. Remain focused on heaven and do not let scripture stand in your way. Let no man stand in your way. Let no leader stand in your way. Step over the bumps don't stop and ponder them, they will snare you with the earth. Embrace that you are not of this earth but just passing through.