Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Tobin]

Quit misrepresenting my position. There was no iron age in the Americas during the time of the Nephites. That is what makes the text anachronistic, because it clearly describes the widespread use of high-heat smelting technologies in making weapons and tools. What you are doing is ignoring the text because you know it doesn't match the reality on the ground.

What you describe is an iron age. I will admit that the Nephite colonly had access to this specialized knowledge through Nephi. But this was a small population and in a limited area and required limited resources. There is NO reason to believe that the Nephite civilization had either ample supplies nor crafters with this specialized knowledge. So, that is why I keep saying you are making false assumptions based on one narrow part of the text. And stating that I am "ignoring the text" when I do no such thing is silly. I've described in detail sections of the text where it is clear they don't have steel weapons (such as the Lamanites prior to merging with the Nephites) and you don't seem to acknowledge that. So, who is really ignoring the text Runtu?

[_Buffalo]

You realize, of course, that the entire First Vision account is hearsay, right? Do you reject the scriptures as hearsay?

Of course it is hearsay. So, you need to talk to God and get a first hand account to know if it is true. As I've said again and again, there is no point to Mormonism without speaking with God about it.

The methodology you refer to has already been debunked. It is not a valid truth test.

See:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22433

[_Buffalo]

Fair and farms are the ones who come up with two Cumorah's.

And it is NOT my position. There is ONE hill Cumorah and it isn't in NY.

You'd better alert the Brethren.

http://www.hillcumorah.org/Pageant/

They've doing it all wrong.

[_Tobin]

The methodology you refer to has already been debunked. It is not a valid truth test.

See:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22433

I see, so God is bunk. Glad you cleared that up for me. Ok, everyone go home and stop discussing Mormonism. Buffalo has definitively debunked God.

[_Runtu]

What you describe is an iron age. I will admit that the Nephite colonly had access to this specialized knowledge through Nephi. But this was a small population and in a limited area and required limited resources. There is NO reason to believe that the Nephite civilization had either ample supplies nor crafters with this specialized knowledge. So, that is why I keep saying you are making false assumptions based on one narrow part of the text. And stating that I am "ignoring the text" when I do no such thing is silly. I've described in detail sections of the text where it is clear they don't have steel weapons (such as the Lamanites prior to merging with the Nephites) and you don't seem to acknowledge that. So, who is really ignoring the text Runtu?

It isn't me. You want to limit the discussion to a time period when the Nephite "colony" is small and therefore would have left little trace, which of course makes sense from an apologetic position. The text, however, specifically says that the Jaredites had this technology, and so did the Nephites. I'm sticking with what the text says. Nothing more.

[_Buffalo]

The methodology you refer to has already been debunked. It is not a valid truth test.

See:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22433

I see, so God is bunk. Glad you cleared that up for me. Ok, everyone go home and stop discussing Mormonism. Buffalo has definitively debunked God.

No, the methodology is bunk. Let's avoid emotional outbursts and strawman arguments.

[_Themis]

And it is NOT my position. There is ONE hill Cumorah and it isn't in NY.

That's fine. The apologetic position is that there are two, since many in Joseph day referred to the one in NY as the hill cumorah.

As I've stated, knowledge of steel production was highly specialized and the weapons were rare in the Nephite civilization (and worldwide). It wasn't common until the iron age.

That's why they call it the iron age, when iron and steel production became common. You say they were rare, but admit we see no evidence for such. The text tells us they made all manner of things with iron and steel. Lamoni's group says they saw many rusting blades. Look up iron, steel, metal in the index to see all the places it talks about it. You really are the one who is ignoring the text, and making assumptions based on little to no evidence.

The position that the Nephites had an iron age is absurd and the archeological evidence supports this because there is NO evidence of an iron age.

Of course it's absurd. That's why the text is anachronistic. That's the whole point.

You and Runtu both know this so stop arguing that there must have been one.

We argue the opposite. It's the Book of Mormon that says there was. Quit ignoring the text.

Also, as I've said, we do not know when the macuahuitl appeared (we only have a depiction dating from 870 AD and stating that is the date it appeared is absurd). But, even IF it did, we know there were plenty of weapons in use before then and wood and obsidian are commonly had and these types of weapons have been in use and development for a very long time in mesoamerica. How do we know that? Because we have depictions of these types of weapons dating all the way back to the 6th century BC on stela.

So you don't know when the macuahuitl came about. People have been using wooden weapons for thousands of years. So what. Show where the text actually says the swords were made of wood.

[_Themis]

It isn't me. You want to limit the discussion to a time period when the Nephite "colony" is small and therefore would have left little trace, which of course makes sense from an apologetic position. The text, however, specifically says that the Jaredites had this technology, and so did the Nephites. I'm sticking with what the text says. Nothing more.

Interesting how one can make so many assumptions that are not in the text, and yet get all bent out of shape for others going by what the text actually says. Bias really can affect us in major ways.

[_bcuzbcuz]

I see, so God is bunk. Glad you cleared that up for me. Ok, everyone go home and stop discussing Mormonism. Buffalo has definitively debunked God.

God is not the issue, at least not for this particular question. Bunking or debunking God may be a line of reasoning you would like to initiate. I say "have at it". But post to a new topic.

However, when you wish to deal with glass and steel as presented in the Book of Mormon, please stay on topic.

You have repeatedly reviewed how God has witnessed for you. How very nice for you. But it still has nothing to do with steel and glass.

Ask God for clearly defined gps coordinates for finding glass and steel from pre-Columbian times and I'll gladly travel with you to dig it up. You could maybe begin by praying about certain coordinates like 14°36′48″N 90°32′7″W or 21°09′38″N 86°50′51″W and asking for confirmation. A yes or no answer would suffice.

[_Equality]

since he [Joseph Smith] was often wrong about a great many things.

I'm glad we found something to agree on.