Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Drifting]

After seeing God, I have re-evaluated my position.

Please can you define what you mean by 'seeing'?
Thanks.

[_Buffalo]

No, the methodology is bunk. Let's avoid emotional outbursts and strawman arguments.

LOL. Josepth Smith saw God, so you see God and talk to him about it and that isn't a good way to determine the truth. Don't be absurd.

Joseph Smith claimed to have some sort of vision, about which he constantly changed his story. But there's no way to verify that he did.

Did you read the thread I linked to? I suspect you didn't.

[_Themis]

Of course, Nephi would have taught Laman and Lemuel how to make weapons to use against him and his people. I don't think so. And your explantation doesn't fit with what Alma says about the weapons they were using at his time. Remember, this was a specialized craft that Nephi knew (not Laman and Lemuel).

Runtu is right that this is irrelevant to the issue of steel and iron in the Book of Mormon, but that was a lot of assumptions there. How would Laman and Lemuel not learn it from just being around Nephi, and would have to help him in many ways. It also assumes Nephi's knowledge was from God and not maybe the family business. It also assumes Nephi, who is suppose to be righteous and love his brothers, would deny them this secular knowledge.

And you are making huge assumptions that the text implies an iron age in the Nephite civilization where none is discussed.

It doesn't imply it, it directly says it. Nephi says he taught his people to work in iron and steel. In Jarom the Nephites became rich in the workmanship of iron. It mentions this in a number of places. The text does not support what you want it to. You make certain assumptions, because you believe the Book of Mormon is true, but also accept that no evidence exists. Then you admit the Jaredites has plenty of it, yet this is even worse for the Book of Mormon. by the way read up on the Olmec. They didn't have any high heat technology to make iron and steel.

Steel making was a specialized craft. This was true world-wide until the iron age and there were ample craftsmen and materials.

The iron age is defined by the introduction of iron smelting. The text says the Nephites were doing this before they even arrived in the new world. The text says they made all manner of things with iron. In heleman it says both Nephites and Lamanites had all manner of precious metals. All this and you can't show your assumptions it was rare with the text.

Iron is the steel. We aren't talking about the 20th century. Even in Joseph Smith's time, high-grade steel was rare.

Of course steel is iron. Both are a problem for the Book of Mormon.

Again, if there was no iron age and it was specialized craft, we wouldn't expect to find much evidence. For example, there would be no common iron implements and tools laying about. Nor nails, bolts, etc used in construction. There would be no large deposits of raw materials. And the list goes on.

I suspect you need to learn more about it, and why many different types of evidence would exist showing this technology. Again the text does not support your idea of it being so rare.

Arguing there must of been an iron age in the Book of Mormon when the book is at best ambiguous about the Jaredites (with a perfectly rational view that it was specialized and they accumulated iron weapons over a long time) and non-existent outside of the Nephite colony is disingenuous.

You seem to get things backwards all the time. It is disingenuous to argue the opposite of what the text says. The text says many times they were making and uses iron tools and weapons. No where does it say it was so rare. This is just your apologetic to protect your beliefs of why we see no evidence of iron smelting going on, or all the other things we would expect to see from high heat technology. It's like talking to people who will tell you black is white and white is black.

[_Tobin]

How would Laman and Lemuel not learn it from just being around Nephi, and would have to help him in many ways. It also assumes Nephi's knowledge was from God and not maybe the family business. It also assumes Nephi, who is suppose to be righteous and love his brothers, would deny them this secular knowledge.

Now, you are just throwing mud at the wall and hoping some of it sticks. You have no rational reasons for your suppositions nor have you based any of it upon what the text actually says (this seems to be a BIG problem with you).

2 Nephi 5:14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

So I'm done discussing this topic with you. You clearly have no interest in making a honest attempt to address the problem.

It doesn't imply it, it directly says it. Nephi says he taught his people to work in iron and steel. In Jarom the Nephites became rich in the workmanship of iron.

You are like a broken record. This is the Nephite colony. I am really beginning to wonder if you have the ability to understand any of the various parts of the Book of Mormon and the timeline associated with them.

It mentions this in a number of places.

Another generalization. I have directly addressed each of the parts and why the text does not imply any such false assumption.

The text does not support what you want it to. You make certain assumptions, because you believe the Book of Mormon is true, but also accept that no evidence exists. Then you admit the Jaredites has plenty of it, yet this is even worse for the Book of Mormon. by the way read up on the Olmec. They didn't have any high heat technology to make iron and steel.

And again, I can't help it if you make false assumptions based on iron being mentioned in the Book of Mormon. I have many times tried to help you understand how iron could be mentioned and it not being the cause of an iron age.

The iron age is defined by the introduction of iron smelting. The text says the Nephites were doing this before they even arrived in the new world. The text says they made all manner of things with iron. In heleman it says both Nephites and Lamanites had all manner of precious metals. All this and you can't show your assumptions it was rare with the text.

Simply not true. The iron age was the generalization of the knowledge of iron smelting and crafting throughout civilization. It was also applied in many areas. Knowledge of iron smelting and crafting was known for a very long time before the iron age (as early as 2000-1800 BC or even eariler). The reason there was no iron age earlier was it was specialized to only a select number of people and there were few resources.

I suspect you need to learn more about it, and why many different types of evidence would exist showing this technology. Again the text does not support your idea of it being so rare...
You seem to get things backwards all the time. It is disingenuous to argue the opposite of what the text says. The text says many times they were making and uses iron tools and weapons. No where does it say it was so rare. This is just your apologetic to protect your beliefs of why we see no evidence of iron smelting going on, or all the other things we would expect to see from high heat technology. It's like talking to people who will tell you black is white and white is black.

Blah, blah blah - we can argue this all day long. You insist the Book says X and I say the Book says Y, shall we look at the archeological evidence to settle this? Uhm, surprise - NO IRON AGE.

[_Themis]

LOL

Tobin,

I am not sure why you still want to call black white and white black. Why is it that we have been the ones quoting the text and you have not. You really should start trying to support your many assumptions with the text.

So I'm done discussing this topic with you. You clearly have no interest in making a honest attempt to address the problem.

You haven't even addressed the problem of iron and steel being anachronistic.

You are like a broken record. This is the Nephite colony. I am really beginning to wonder if you have the ability to understand any of the various parts of the Book of Mormon and the timeline associated with them.

I know you don't. This Nephite colony become very large if you actually read the Book of Mormon and note what the numbers it tells us say with troops and such.

Another generalization. I have directly addressed each of the parts and why the text does not imply any such false assumption.

Where. I haven't seen it yet. The text brings up the use of iron and steel a number of places, and you have yet to show how it was so rare as to not be realistic to see evdience. I call Bull Crap.

And again, I can't help it if you make false assumptions based on iron being mentioned in the Book of Mormon. I have many times tried to help you understand how iron could be mentioned and it not being the cause of an iron age.

This is a dodge of the issue. Call it what you want. When it comes to history talking about the iron age, they don't bring up the Americas because there wasn't one, yet the text says they were using iron and steel with no disclaimers of how rare it was. If you want use the text to back up this assertion of yours.

I am sure you are a nice guy, and that we probably agree on many tings, but I am going to repeat what Runtu said, because it is too true.

It's kind of hard to discuss anything with someone who can't even acknowledge what the text says and furthermore tells us that his interpretation of the text means there will not be any evidence, whatsoever. Tell me again why I should bother continuing this absurd discussion.

[_Tobin]

This Nephite colony become very large if you actually read the Book of Mormon and note what the numbers it tells us say with troops and such.

How many people lived that Nephite colony at its peak and where was it? We can basically guess where the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations were. The colony - well, good luck with that.

Look. I'm sure you want the text to state there is an iron age. It makes it easy to disprove because there is no evidence of an iron age in any archeological study outside of some highly localized uses such as an ancient iron mine in Peru. I find such uses indicitive of what I've been stating as well as some references in the text with indicate the swords employed by the Lamanites were not iron. I have explained why the mentioning of iron alone or selective uses does not imply iron age and that is why we do not find any evidence of one. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[_Buffalo]

This Nephite colony become very large if you actually read the Book of Mormon and note what the numbers it tells us say with troops and such.

How many people lived that Nephite colony at its peak and where was it? We can basically guess where the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations were. The colony - well, good luck with that.

Look. I'm sure you want the text to state there is an iron age. It makes it easy to disprove because there is no evidence of an iron age in any archeological study outside of some highly localized uses such as an ancient iron mine in Peru. I find such uses indicitive of what I've been stating as well as some references in the text with indicate the swords employed by the Lamanites were not iron. I have explained why the mentioning of iron alone or selective uses does not imply iron age and that is why we do not find any evidence of one. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Your argument is consistent with a non-historical Book of Mormon. Thanks.

[_Tobin]

Your argument is consistent with a non-historical Book of Mormon. Thanks.

If the historical [understanding] of the Book of Mormon is based on faulty assumptions and 19th century notions. Then the "historical" understanding needs to change.

[_Buffalo]

Your argument is consistent with a non-historical Book of Mormon. Thanks.

If the historical [understanding] of the Book of Mormon is based on faulty assumptions and 19th century notions. Then the "historical" understanding needs to change.

You acknowledge that there's no evidence of an iron age in pre-Columbian mesoamerica. That's right. Now follow that to its logical conclusion - it's not a historical work, since it presents an ancient American iron age. Anachronisms are what we look for to determine whether a work is historical or not.

[_Tobin]

You acknowledge that there's no evidence of an iron age in pre-Columbian mesoamerica. That's right. Now follow that to its logical conclusion - it's not a historical work, since it presents an ancient American iron age.

<- and there it is - that is the historical view of the Book of Mormon that is broken. Not the Book itself.