Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

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_Drifting
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Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Drifting »

The Book of Isaiah (Hebrew: ספר ישעיה‎) is the first of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible, preceding the books of Ezekiel, Jeremiah and the Book of the Twelve. (The order of the subsequent books differs somewhat in Christian traditions regarding the Old Testament canon).
Traditionally the book is divided into 66 chapters. The first 39 chapters prophesy doom for a sinful Judah and for all the nations of the world that oppose God, while the last 27 prophesy the restoration of the nation of Israel and a new creation in God's glorious future kingdom;[1] this section includes the Songs of the Suffering Servant, four separate passages referring to the nation of Israel, interpreted by Christians as prefiguring the coming of Jesus Christ.
Tradition ascribes authorship of the book to a single person, Isaiah son of Amoz, but for over a hundred years scholars have seen the book as a compilation of writings from three different periods. The first set of writings, termed Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), contains the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet with 7th-century BCE expansions. The second, Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), is the work of a 6th-century BCE author writing near the end of the Babylonian captivity. The third, the poetic Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), was composed in Jerusalem shortly after return from exile, probably by multiple authors.[1][2][3][4]:pp. 558–562


Doesn't this totally debunk any shred of credibility the Book of Mormon had left?
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_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Drifting wrote:
The Book of Isaiah (Hebrew: ספר ישעיה‎) is the first of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible, preceding the books of Ezekiel, Jeremiah and the Book of the Twelve. (The order of the subsequent books differs somewhat in Christian traditions regarding the Old Testament canon).
Traditionally the book is divided into 66 chapters. The first 39 chapters prophesy doom for a sinful Judah and for all the nations of the world that oppose God, while the last 27 prophesy the restoration of the nation of Israel and a new creation in God's glorious future kingdom;[1] this section includes the Songs of the Suffering Servant, four separate passages referring to the nation of Israel, interpreted by Christians as prefiguring the coming of Jesus Christ.
Tradition ascribes authorship of the book to a single person, Isaiah son of Amoz, but for over a hundred years scholars have seen the book as a compilation of writings from three different periods. The first set of writings, termed Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), contains the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet with 7th-century BCE expansions. The second, Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), is the work of a 6th-century BCE author writing near the end of the Babylonian captivity. The third, the poetic Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), was composed in Jerusalem shortly after return from exile, probably by multiple authors.[1][2][3][4]:pp. 558–562
Doesn't this totally debunk any shred of credibility the Book of Mormon had left?
I'll chirp up since from purely a Christian point of view (I'll explain the flavors a bit later), there are a lot of problems with this theory.
1) Parts of the New Testament refer to both the first parts and second part of Isaiah and state that they come from Isaiah.
John 12:37–38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him; That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
This is a quote from Isaiah and clearly in the purported Deutero-Isaiah section:
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
However, the text of John does not distinguish between that and another reference to Isaiah earlier:
John 12:40–41 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.
and this quote from Isaiah:
Isaiah 6:9–10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
2) Jesus Christ, the purported son of God, was familiar with Isaiah and felt no need to identify the fraudulent sections.
3) Early church apostles and leaders did not identify the fraudulent sections.
4) From a Catholic point-of-view, the bishops at the Council of Laodicea when voting on which books to include did not spot the forgery.
5) From a Christian literalist point-of-view, the Bible is the word of God and it doesn't contain fradulent sections (this is highly a fundamentalist view).
6) The observation of Deutero-Isaiah did not arise till relative recently in the 1800's with J. C. Doederlein and his primary claim being that Isaiah could not have forseen the fall of Jerusalem, the 70 year captivity, the return or Cyrus. Christians would find this reasoning appalling since Isaiah was a prophet of God and certainly should have been able to see the future.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Franktalk
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Franktalk »

A couple of things. The Torah was written into Greek in 280 BC with the other books right behind it. That is the Septuagint. Isaiah is quoted by the New Testament writers. So for what you are implying to be right then the whole history of Christianity is one big lie. So why is it that people try and chip away at one section or another. Why not just come out and say the whole thing is made up. The Jews made it up. There was no Christ. A sect of the Jews made up Christianity and all churches are a lie. Now once you get to that space then sit on a rock somewhere and figure out what you do believe if anything.
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Buffalo »

Franktalk wrote:A couple of things. The Torah was written into Greek in 280 BC with the other books right behind it. That is the Septuagint. Isaiah is quoted by the New Testament writers. So for what you are implying to be right then the whole history of Christianity is one big lie. So why is it that people try and chip away at one section or another. Why not just come out and say the whole thing is made up. The Jews made it up. There was no Christ. A sect of the Jews made up Christianity and all churches are a lie. Now once you get to that space then sit on a rock somewhere and figure out what you do believe if anything.


That doesn't follow from the Deutero-Isaiah issue. I can see that you're just as ignorant and reactionary as Tobin about this matter.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Buffalo wrote:That doesn't follow from the Deutero-Isaiah issue. I can see that you're just as ignorant and reactionary as Tobin about this matter.
Ah, I see. I'm ignorant and reactionary because I think your theory is a balloon full of laughing gas.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Buffalo »

Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:That doesn't follow from the Deutero-Isaiah issue. I can see that you're just as ignorant and reactionary as Tobin about this matter.
Ah, I see. I'm ignorant and reactionary because I think your theory is a balloon full of laughing gas.


You don't know anything about it. That's why you're ignorant. That's really the definition of ignorant, isn't it?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Buffalo wrote:
Tobin wrote:Ah, I see. I'm ignorant and reactionary because I think your theory is a balloon full of laughing gas.
You don't know anything about it. That's why you're ignorant. That's really the definition of ignorant, isn't it?
Ah, the old I'm-smarter-than-you argument. Well, you are right to an extent. I'm pretty ignorant about scientology too and think that is a balloon full of laughing gas as well, but please do enlighten me oh knowledgable one. Show me the error of my ways. Help me understand why taking a wrecking ball to Christianity is necessary so we can demolish Mormonism.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Buffalo
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Buffalo »

Tobin wrote:Ah, the old I'm-smarter-than-you argument. Well, you are right to an extent. I'm pretty ignorant about scientology too and think that is a balloon full of laughing gas as well, but please do enlighten me oh knowledgable one. Show me the error of my ways. Help me understand why taking a wrecking ball to Christianity is necessary so we can demolish Mormonism.


I don't know if I'm smarter, but I'm certainly better-informed on this particular issue.

We've tried many times to present evidence to you. You just dismiss it all without examination or much thought.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Buffalo wrote:I don't know if I'm smarter, but I'm certainly better-informed on this particular issue. We've tried many times to present evidence to you. You just dismiss it all without examination or much thought.
I dismiss it because I don't see much reason to get invested in it. There is nothing useful gained out of adopting the position nor reading the hundreds of pages about it. I have stated it may be informed speculation, but the assumptions you have to adopt are untenable from a religious point-of-view.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Buffalo
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Buffalo »

Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:I don't know if I'm smarter, but I'm certainly better-informed on this particular issue. We've tried many times to present evidence to you. You just dismiss it all without examination or much thought.
I dismiss it because I don't see much reason to get invested in it. There is nothing useful gained out of adopting the position nor reading the hundreds of pages about it. I have stated it may be informed speculation, but the assumptions you have to adopt are untenable from a religious point-of-view.


If you're going to ignore evidence because you don't like the implications, then I don't see the point in trying to help you out.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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