Themis wrote:I asked you to show where I said it, which you have failed to do. Runtu is right that you have a tendency to put words into peoples mouths. I am aware of how the iron age is defined generally. When it comes to specific areas, different dates will occur based on the evidence of when their iron age started. Defining when an areas iron age began is dependent on iron smelting knowledge. The text certainly claims they did, and that they made use of it. Other things would also be present with high heat technology. You admit that the jaredites must have made a fair numbers of things with iron considering the descriptions of the remains of many rusting swords, not to mention brass Armour. The problem is the text describing what we don't find. This is why it is anachronistic. With your assumption A which cannot be questioned, you have to come up with other assumptions then the most logical ones from the text. You still have never addressed the other problems with high heat technology and what we would expect to see from it that again we don't.
It isn't me putting words in your mouth. I'm just trying to understand your extreme position on when there is an iron age and when there isn't one.
Now, what do we know about mesoamerican civilizations?
1) They did mine iron ore to a limited desgree for reasons described below.
2) They certainly had bronze - fashioned into axes, bells, etc, so it is ridiculous to believe they did not understand the concept of heat or melting and molding of metals.
3) The Olmec crafted iron beads and iron ore/magnetite mirrors - so they must have had sufficient technology to melt, and press and mold this metal as well.
4) The Olmecs made numerous ceramics for use as art, etc., so they were NOT unfamiliar with high heat.
The problem with the New World (as many have noted) is there isn't much iron ore close the surface. It requires mining expertise. We know both the Olmecs and Maya were very sophisticated at crafting metal ores. Metals were used primarily as a precious commodity in jewelry and for trade however.
There is no sign of an iron age. And as I have noted, if they had iron weapons, they would have been rare and difficult to craft. In the case of the Jaredites, the number of weapons can be explained by simply the length of time the civilization existed. In the case of the Nephites (a much shortered lived civilization), it is clear they had few iron weapons and resorted to more commonly had materials which types of weapons that were still in use when the Spanish arrived.
Your position almost singularly assumes the text describes an iron age and the presence of large amounts of iron ore and large uses of high heat in the fashioning of implements, glass and so on. Basically everything you would expect to find in an iron age. It presupposes a large caste of crafters with sufficient knowledge of the metal and large reservoirs of material to use it in implements. There simply is no evidence of these large reservoirs of material, nor the mining infrastructure necessary to support it - nor does the text describe any such activity which is a huge hole in your assumption since this would have been essential. There certainly is no evidence of iron used in construction, agriculture, glassware, and so on. The only uses of note is as a precious trading commodity and other specialized uses such as the beads and mirrors crafted by the Olmec. So the claim that they did not possess sufficient technology to deal with the material is absurd. It is only a question of the degree to which the metal was employed.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom