Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Runtu]

Agreed. However, it has been stated on here that the Olmecs did not possess high heat technology and that is certainly not true.

CFR. The Olmec used an open-pit firing technique as follows:

The pit itself may be circular or trench-like. The depth of the pit would vary depending on the amount of pieces you are firing and the shape of the trench. The fuel that can be used in practical operations today include such options as wood, wood ash, leaves, twigs, and kindling. The work is covered with this fuel which acts as a blanket, creating a layer or insulation with the ash. This would create mound over the pieces. The mound is lit and left to smolder for several hours, if not until the next day. The pit should not be disturbed and must be allowed to cool naturally, until the pots can be comfortably handled. ("The Ceramic History of the Olmec Culture," Elizabeth Lazure, Yale University)

This is exactly what I described earlier in this thread. It is a low-tech, low-heat firing.

[_Tobin]

CFR. The Olmec used an open-pit firing technique as follows:

The pit itself may be circular or trench-like. The depth of the pit would vary depending on the amount of pieces you are firing and the shape of the trench. The fuel that can be used in practical operations today include such options as wood, wood ash, leaves, twigs, and kindling. The work is covered with this fuel which acts as a blanket, creating a layer or insulation with the ash. This would create mound over the pieces. The mound is lit and left to smolder for several hours, if not until the next day. The pit should not be disturbed and must be allowed to cool naturally, until the pots can be comfortably handled. ("The Ceramic History of the Olmec Culture," Elizabeth Lazure, Yale University)

This is exactly what I described earlier in this thread. It is a low-tech, low-heat firing.

The ancient Olmec "Bird Vessel" and bowl, both ceramic and dating to circa 1000 BC as well as other ceramics are produced in kilns capable of exceeding approximately 900°C. The only other prehistoric culture known to have achieved such high temperatures is that of Ancient Egypt.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_art

[_Runtu]

The ancient Olmec "Bird Vessel" and bowl, both ceramic and dating to circa 1000 BC as well as other ceramics are produced in kilns capable of exceeding approximately 900°C. The only other prehistoric culture known to have achieved such high temperatures is that of Ancient Egypt.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_art

Thank you for proving my point. Olmec kilns (pits, really) are 600°C short of the high-heat technology needed to smelt ore and create high-heat pottery.

[_Tobin]

Thank you for proving my point. Olmec kilns (pits, really) are 600°C short of the high-heat technology needed to smelt ore and create high-heat pottery.

Actually, this doesn't prove your point at all. This same kind of knowledge was necessary for early iron working in 2000BC in Anatolia, unless you are willing to dispute that as well. You stated that Olmec's did not possess high heat technology. Here is an example. Now, it just isn't hot enough for you. That's splitting hairs. They clearly had the knowledge of how to put together high heat kilns. The only question is did they have the enough knowledge to apply this towards fashioning iron?

[cacheman]

Actually, this doesn't prove your point at all. This same kind of knowledge was necessary for early iron working in 2000BC in Anatolia, unless you are willing to dispute that as well. You stated that Olmec's did not possess high heat technology. Here is an example. Now, it just isn't hot enough for you. That's splitting hairs. They clearly had the knowledge of how to put together high heat kilns. The only question is did they have the enough knowledge to apply this towards fashioning iron?

It's not splitting hairs at all. Don't be silly. Nephi used bellows to smelt ore because it gets the fire much hotter than 900°C. Egyptians and Greeks used bellows around 2000BC. Why? they needed the heat to smelt their iron.

As I've shown repeatedly, Olmecs and other Native American groups did not have bellows or other high-heat technologies; their pottery (and lack of iron implements) testifies to this fact.

[_Tobin]

It's not splitting hairs at all. Don't be silly. Nephi used bellows to smelt ore because it gets the fire much hotter than 900°C. Egyptians and Greeks used bellows around 2000BC. Why? they needed the heat to smelt their iron. As I've shown repeatedly, Olmecs and other Native American groups did not have bellows or other high-heat technologies; their pottery (and lack of iron implements) testifies to this fact.

Ah, so we finally come down to it. We have fire, we have heat, and now all we need to do is find some bellows. Your position is getting smaller and smaller all the time.

[_Themis]

Ah, so we finally come down to it. We have fire, we have heat, and now all we need to do is find some bellows. Your position is getting smaller and smaller all the time.

You have got to be kidding. Do you really think just making a fire is somehow high heat. Did you really think this when we talked about high heat?

[_Buffalo]

It's not splitting hairs at all. Don't be silly. Nephi used bellows to smelt ore because it gets the fire much hotter than 900°C. Egyptians and Greeks used bellows around 2000BC. Why? they needed the heat to smelt their iron. As I've shown repeatedly, Olmecs and other Native American groups did not have bellows or other high-heat technologies; their pottery (and lack of iron implements) testifies to this fact.

Ah, so we finally come down to it. We have fire, we have heat, and now all we need to do is find some bellows. Your position is getting smaller and smaller all the time.

And it's just a small step away from rocket engines!

[_Tobin]

Yes we know we the scientific communities does not agree with you it is pure speculation.

Yes, because current scientific thinking and evidence has always been correct. How about we don't climb out on silly limbs like that and state what we know and leave it at that? Scientific thinking used to believe that iron forging could not possibly have been available in 600BC, were they right? No. I think we'll find that current thinking about many things can change and has changed based on the next discovery to be made.

Do you want to go with your assumptions, or what the text actually says. Let me know. :) I do agree that they could not have populated so fast, but then it is another problem of the Book of Mormon.

Let's just go with reason and stop with your wild speculation and interpretations of what you think the text says.

That is what the evidence shows us. If you disagree, then present your evidence.

Just more logical fallacy coming from you. Don't try to prove a negative. For example, we know the earliest known item of such and such is this. That does not prove there was not an earlier item out there.

Again we can go with your assumptions, or go with the science.

Same problem as stated above.

All this does is tell me you know little of the subject. iron is malleable, and can be turned into beads and other products with just hammering, polishing. The mirrors were created by polishing appropriate pieces of iron ore.

Yes, because we all know iron is a soft metal and doesn't require high heat.

Then we agree here. No high heat needed.

I'll just let you think about that statement for a while.

Thank you for supporting what I was saying about high heat. No where near enough to smelt iron. I guess anything over boiling point of water must be high heat to you. :)

Ah, now you are where Runtu is, all were missing is some bellows and we have arrived at the promised land.

Limited and the text dwells on iron mining exactly where? Again, we are talking New World where iron mines go deep underground.

Jaredites made swords of steel from molten rock. Nephi also. Look up molten in the index. They would need this knowledge to get the ore.

Exactly, so where is this emphasized in the text? According to you and Runtu, there was an iron age. This would have required a vast network of mining. Certainly the Book of Mormon wouldn't have ignored such a major endeavor.

[_Themis]

Yes, because current scientific thinking and evidence has always been correct. How about we don't climb out on silly limbs like that and state what we know and leave it at that? Scientific thinking used to believe that iron forging could not possibly have been available in 600BC, were they right? No. I think we'll find that current thinking about many things can change and has changed based on the next discovery to be made.

Therefore the excuse for you to believe what ever, no matter how illogical.

Let's just go with reason and stop with your wild speculation and interpretations of what you think the text says.

You do know the text supplies numbers, or did you forget this. :)

Just more logical fallacy coming from you. Don't try to prove a negative. For example, we know the earliest known item of such and such is this. That does not prove there was not an earlier item out there.

I take that as an admission as no. You had already said as much anyways, but then you are inconsistent in this thread.

Yes, because we all know iron is a soft metal and doesn't require high heat.

I did not say soft, only malleable. It does require a very high temperature to melt that was not present. You didn't even realize you were saying this with some of your links. :)

I'll just let you think about that statement for a while.

Funny how you ignored this issue for so long, and when you do bring it up, you want to redefine what it means to fit your agenda of protecting assumption A.

Ah, now you are where Runtu is, all were missing is some bellows and we have arrived at the promised land.

LOL Can't deal with the evidence presented now. Too funny. Bellows are mentioned and they make a big difference. Remember we are not arguing that the text is an ancient one, so we don't need to reinterpret the text or the evidence on the ground to fit a preconceived solution(Assumption A)

Exactly, so where is this emphasized in the text?

Oh it now needs more emphasis for you . LOL I said look up molten in the index. They would need this knowledge

According to you and Runtu, there was an iron age.

Nope, but then you still like to misrepresent what we say again.

This would have required a vast network of mining. Certainly the Book of Mormon wouldn't have ignored such a major endeavor.

LOLOLOLOL Oh I see, now we are arguing that the text is more then a religious one. Some people don't know when to admit they are wrong.