Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

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_Morley
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Morley »

Franktalk wrote:
Samantabhadra wrote:CFR.


http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/augu ... 82310.html

It is obvious that the constants of nature are not constant. Just a belief in the big bang must dictate that belief.

1) Frank, please quote the part of the article that says that decay rates are changing, are "getting faster."

2) What does this mean: "Just a belief in the big bang must dictate that belief"?
_Franktalk
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Morley wrote:1) Frank, please quote the part of the article that says that decay rates are changing, are "getting faster."


"Checking data collected at Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island and the Federal Physical and Technical Institute in Germany, they came across something even more surprising: long-term observation of the decay rate of silicon-32 and radium-226 seemed to show a small seasonal variation. The decay rate was ever so slightly faster in winter than in summer."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/augu ... 82310.html

Morley wrote:2) What does this mean: "Just a belief in the big bang must dictate that belief"?


Under very dense energy it is assumed that the universe unfolded, it did not pop into existence. The universe of the first few minutes does not look like the universe we have today.

"Electrons caused very small packets of light called photons to scatter continuously, and if you can believe it, light was actually linked, or coupled, to the particles, causing the whole universe to glow."

http://cmb.physics.wisc.edu/tutorial/bigbang.html

"The Big Bang marks the instant at which the universe began, when space and time came into existence and all the matter in the cosmos started to expand."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/univers ... /bang.html

I don't hold to these views but people who say they believe what science says should know this. If one believes in the constants of nature they must accept that they appear to be constant now. A belief in the big bang must step on the constants of nature because the fabric of space was so much different in the first few microseconds. Pick up a book about all of this and read it. I don't think the theory is correct but it is very interesting none the less.
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

"Checking data collected at Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island and the Federal Physical and Technical Institute in Germany, they came across something even more surprising: long-term observation of the decay rate of silicon-32 and radium-226 seemed to show a small seasonal variation. The decay rate was ever so slightly faster in winter than in summer."


Sorry but that study has already been completely and utterly debunked:

http://donuts.berkeley.edu/papers/EarthSun.pdf

We have reexamined our previously published data to search for evidence of correlations between the rates for the alpha, beta-minus, beta-plus, and electron capture decays of 22Na, 44Ti, 108Ag, 121Sn, 133Ba, and 241Am and the Earth–Sun distance. We find no evidence for such correlations and set limits on the possible amplitudes of such correlations substantially smaller than those observed in previous experiments.


The rate of radioactive decay is a property that is inherent and related to the mass and quantum properties of the atom in question. The rate of radioactive decay of a given element does not change any more than its atomic number changes. Sorry.

A belief in the big bang must step on the constants of nature because the fabric of space was so much different in the first few microseconds.


No, the constants were exactly the same. What you are talking about is called "inflationary theory," it is more or less accepted as fact, but the constants were not at all different. What was different was how matter and energy in the early universe interacted, but the laws governing their interaction were exactly the same as now; only the conditions were different, on account of the extraordinarily high temperature, pressure, and so on. The point being, not a single one of the scientists working on inflationary theory has posited that the constants of the early universe were different from the constants of the universe today.
_Franktalk
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Samantabhadra wrote:The rate of radioactive decay is a property that is inherent and related to the mass and quantum properties of the atom in question. The rate of radioactive decay of a given element does not change any more than its atomic number changes. Sorry.


The link you provided verified the changes to the decay rate they only were concerned with the relationship to the sun. If you read, you do read don't you, You will not find me saying the sun caused it. You can twist all you want. You can believe anything you wish.

another link

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research ... nsDec.html
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1007.3318v1.pdf

And you gotta check out this guy.

http://www.cifa-icef.org/shnoll.pdf
http://cyclesresearchinstitute.wordpres ... -activity/

I love this one

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701109.pdf

But I guess you are the expert and all of these people who have experimented for over 40 years are just liars. Or you do not know what you are talking about.
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Are you sure you can read? Your initial link ("The strange case of solar flares and radioactive elements") documents research done by "Jenkins, Fischbach and their colleagues." In other words, "Jenkins et al." "Et al." is short for "et alii" which means "and others." Yes, this is exactly the Purdue University research you link to in your first two cites, ("Evidence for Solar Influence in Nuclear Decay Rates") which was written about in your first link.

Except there is no evidence for solar influence in nuclear decay rates. This was the point of the Berkeley paper I linked to, which specifically referenced and refuted the claims of "Jenkins et al.":

Recently, Jenkins et al. proposed that these
decay rate variations were correlated with the distance between
the Earth and the Sun. Jenkins et al. went on to suggest that the underlying mechanism responsible for this correlation might be some previously unobserved field emitted by the Sun or perhaps was the result of the (±3%) annual variation in the flux of solar neutrinos reaching the Earth. If the Jenkins et al. proposal were correct, it would have profound consequences for many areas of science and engineering. Thus, it is important to test this proposal in a variety of experiments. Therefore, we have reanalyzed a large body of decay data that we collected over the past 15 years to search for the type of periodic variations observed in the abovementioned experiments.


The conclusion of the paper is what I cited above, which was the definitive refutation of the "Jenkins et al." hypothesis, viz. that the sun has some kind of effect on nuclear decay rates. It does not.

And Ray Tomes is an insane crackpot. Check out his WikiPedia user page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RayTomes

There have been problems with cycles related material in wikipedia. Several people have taken it upon themselves to try and butcher, merge or delete all articles relating to cycles. This is very sad for people that want to learn about cycles. These things have often been done in violation of wikipedia policy. I have continued to do battle and will keep using every channel to try and get a good result.


Do you know why his self-promoted insane crackpot theories about Cycles Harmonics (or whatever) get deleted from WikiPedia? For the same reason that all the other self-promotion of insane crackpot theories by insane crackpots get deleted from WikiPedia: 1) it violates the content guidelines, and (I cannot stress this enough) 2) it is insane crackpottery!!!!
_Franktalk
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Samantabhadra wrote:Do you know why his self-promoted insane crackpot theories about Cycles Harmonics (or whatever) get deleted from WikiPedia? For the same reason that all the other self-promotion of insane crackpot theories by insane crackpots get deleted from WikiPedia: 1) it violates the content guidelines, and (I cannot stress this enough) 2) it is insane crackpottery!!!!


I really don't care about this decay stuff. But some people really do care. In time there will be new measurements that will overturn long held positions. It may be this or some other measured thing. I am just having so much fun watching from the sidelines while the old school stomps their feet and swing their fist. You see that what is held to be true will not go away just because some guy proves it should. To watch the old dinosaurs die off is just part of the cycle of life. I guess it is just that lion King thing.
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Apparently, the half-life of this thread's topic is very short because I don't see what you guys are discussing has anything to do with the Deutro-Isaiah theory. And please don't accuse me of not being able to read.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Franktalk
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Tobin wrote:Apparently, the half-life of this thread's topic is very short because I don't see what you guys are discussing has anything to do with the Deutro-Isaiah theory. And please don't accuse me of not being able to read.


Finally a sane comment. The point is that this whole Deutro-Isaiah thing comes from scholars who don't have a spiritual bone in their body. They are tied to secular analysis and the logic of science. The reason I went off in this direction was to point out how science should not be used as a truth detector. Heck some of the major foundations of science are about to fall. It may not be today but soon science will be turned upside down. I do not know what will cause it. But I do know history. You can't have all of these people gathering all this data and not have some new thing do a reset. The old school science types will not embrace anything which will cause their foundation to fall. You can read all about this happening before and it will happen again.
_Drifting
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:Heck some of the major foundations of science are about to fall. It may not be today but soon science will be turned upside down. I do not know what will cause it. But I do know history.


Frank, with the greatest of respect, what on earth are you talking about?
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_Franktalk
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:Frank, with the greatest of respect, what on earth are you talking about?


Here are some examples of what might happen.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 130907.htm
http://www.brighthub.com/science/geneti ... 41675.aspx
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