Tobin wrote:I understand that, but I think you are missing the point that we don't have any copies (at all) that support your contention. Even if you were right, and there were multiple written originals - where are the copies of those originals to support your position? As far as I know, they don't exist. Since all the early copies of Matthew agree on this verse, I think we can be pretty certain it is accurate.
I think his point is that even if accurate as far as general meaning, there's no way it can be word for word accurate. It's not like there was a tape recorder there.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Tobin wrote:I did. You were the one that claimed it was a Greek idiom in which the KJV is a word-for-word translation into English. That assumes that it is not also exactly the same idiom in Aramaic as well. If it is different, I would like to know in what way and how it would be expressed in Aramaic then?
I don't speak Aramaic or Greek. However, idioms are almost always exclusive to the language in which they originated. "Cut me some slack, Jack" would be meaningless translated literally into any other language.
And you know that how? These languages were not isolated from one another and shared idioms back and forth as languages often do. In fact, even though Aramaic was Jesus's primary language, he undoubtedly spoke and understood some Greek and Hebrew as well. Unless and until you can tell me what the idiom in Aramaic is, I feel pretty safe in stating it is most likely the same idiom in both languages.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:And you know that how? These languages were not isolated from one another and shared idioms back and forth as languages often do. In fact, even though Aramaic was Jesus's primary language, he undoubtedly spoke and understood some Greek and Hebrew as well. Unless and until you can tell me what the idiom in Aramaic is, I feel pretty safe in stating it is most likely the same idiom in both languages.
This is an argument from ignorance, and therefore fallacious. Aramaic is unrelated to Greek, and is in the Northwest Semitic/Hebrew family of languages (thanks Google!). It's most definitely not safe to say that it's likely the same idiom in two very different languages.
Let's see a list of idioms shared between disparate languages. Go for it.
I speak two related languages, and I can't think of a single shared idiom between them.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Tobin wrote:I understand that, but I think you are missing the point that we don't have any copies (at all) that support your contention. Even if you were right, and there were multiple written originals - where are the copies of those originals to support your position? As far as I know, they don't exist. Since all the early copies of Matthew agree on this verse, I think we can be pretty certain it is accurate.
I think his point is that even if accurate as far as general meaning, there's no way it can be word for word accurate. It's not like there was a tape recorder there.
There is no way at all? I suppose people with eidetic memories don't exist either (sorry, just had to do that for fun). But in all seriousness, I really can't speculate as to what Jesus may have said in this instance. All I have is what the Bible and Book of Mormon claim he said and they agree word for word.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:There is no way at all? I suppose people with eidetic memories don't exist either (sorry, just had to do that for fun). But in all seriousness, I really can't speculate as to what Jesus may have said in this instance. All I have is what the Bible and Book of Mormon claim he said and they agree word for word.
This is one reason why we know the Book of Mormon uses the KJV Bible as a source.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:This is an argument from ignorance, and therefore fallacious. Aramaic is unrelated to Greek, and is in the Northwest Semitic/Hebrew family of languages (thanks Google!). It's most definitely not safe to say that it's likely the same idiom in two very different languages. Let's see a list of idioms shared between disparate languages. Go for it. I speak two related languages, and I can't think of a single shared idiom between them.
Ok, what is the proper idiom then? It can only be an argument from ignorance if you know it is factually incorrect. Until then, I'll stick by my statement - that is, "It is the same idiom in Greek and Aramaic". Now, prove me wrong. I triple-dog dare you. :)
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:There is no way at all? I suppose people with eidetic memories don't exist either (sorry, just had to do that for fun). But in all seriousness, I really can't speculate as to what Jesus may have said in this instance. All I have is what the Bible and Book of Mormon claim he said and they agree word for word.
This is one reason why we know the Book of Mormon uses the KJV Bible as a source.
And we know this how? I smell another triple-dog dare coming on. Prove to me it is not the same idiom that was used in Greek, Aramaic, and the Nephite tongue. Then you'll have a point.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Buffalo wrote:This is an argument from ignorance, and therefore fallacious. Aramaic is unrelated to Greek, and is in the Northwest Semitic/Hebrew family of languages (thanks Google!). It's most definitely not safe to say that it's likely the same idiom in two very different languages. Let's see a list of idioms shared between disparate languages. Go for it. I speak two related languages, and I can't think of a single shared idiom between them.
Ok, what is the proper idiom then? It can only be an argument from ignorance if you know it is factually incorrect. Until then, I'll stick by my statement - that is, "It is the same idiom in Greek and Aramaic". Now, prove me wrong. I triple-dog dare you. :)
Again, an argument from ignorance. Your own fallacious argument is self-defeating. It's up to you to demonstrate your assertions with evidence.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:Again, an argument from ignorance. Your own fallacious argument is self-defeating. It's up to you to demonstrate your assertions with evidence.
Yes, because your assertion that Jesus used a different idiom in Aramaic than is expressed in the Greek has been demonstrated how? CFR. What is the correct idiom in Aramaic? I think I'll stick with what is in the Greek is what Jesus said. If you can ever prove differently, let me know.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Buffalo wrote:Again, an argument from ignorance. Your own fallacious argument is self-defeating. It's up to you to demonstrate your assertions with evidence.
Yes, because your assertion that Jesus used a different idiom in Aramaic than is expressed in the Greek has been demonstrated how? CFR. What is the correct idiom in Aramaic? I think I'll stick with what is in the Greek is what Jesus said. If you can ever prove differently, let me know.
My assertion was based on evidence YOU provided that the KVJ was word for word instead of idea for idea. If your evidence was incorrect, then the KJV is a totally incorrect translation, rather than just a bad translation. Do you follow?
Now, you can either back up your assertions with evidence, or concede defeat. The impetus is on you to back up your claims. Why? Because:
"Jesus was a space alien. Prove to me that he wasn't. I triple-dog dare you. Until you can do that, Unless and until you can tell me what the idiom in Aramaic is, I feel pretty safe in stating that he was an alien."
Do you understand what your error is here?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.