Book of Mormon and Bible - identical quotes...

[_Buffalo]

Again, an argument from ignorance. Your own fallacious argument is self-defeating. It's up to you to demonstrate your assertions with evidence.

Yes, because your assertion that Jesus used a different idiom in Aramaic than is expressed in the Greek has been demonstrated how? CFR. What is the correct idiom in Aramaic? I think I'll stick with what is in the Greek is what Jesus said. If you can ever prove differently, let me know.

Because idioms are language specific, by definition. Shared idioms across very disparate languages would be exceedingly rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom

Can you provide ANY examples of shared idioms across very disparate languages? Does any other language have a word for word equivalent of "kick the bucket" meaning to die?

[Guest]

Prove to me it is not the same idiom that was used in Greek, Aramaic, and the Nephite tongue.

Did You translated ever any text? More than a few line?

I am not a linguist, not a translator. However, I translate day by day 10-20-30 page text from English to Hungarian - among other things on this board - online (I read it in E and I understand it as H). The 90% of the idioms are different in the two language.
You may see the result in the opposite direction (H to E)...

I smell another triple-dog dare coming on.

For example this 8 word sentence can not be translated at all. I understand the essence, after consulting with Urban Dictionary. (I hope I understand)

I could explain it to my wife, within 60-80 word. In this case, the word idiom make no sense at all (in Hungarian).

[_Tobin]

Yes, because your assertion that Jesus used a different idiom in Aramaic than is expressed in the Greek has been demonstrated how? CFR. What is the correct idiom in Aramaic? I think I'll stick with what is in the Greek is what Jesus said. If you can ever prove differently, let me know.

Because idioms are language specific, by definition. Shared idioms across very disparate languages would be exceedingly rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom
Can you provide ANY examples of shared idioms across very disparate languages? Does any other language have a word for word equivalent of "kick the bucket" meaning to die?

Well, clearly you have no idea what you are talking about then. The reason that people believe the original versions of the New Testament were written in Aramaic originally is because of the Semitic Idioms IN THE New Testament that were copied straight over into the Greek Bible word-for-word. To state definitively that these were purely Greek idioms is completely false. In fact, the Greek Bible is full of Semetic idioms actually. Oh, and I'm willing to provide a reference: http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/semitic_idioms.htm that substantiates exactly what I'm saying. I guess I win the bet.

[_Tobin]

Prove to me it is not the same idiom that was used in Greek, Aramaic, and the Nephite tongue.

Did You translated ever any text? More than a few line?

I am not a linguist, not a translator. However, I translate day by day 10-20-30 page text from English to Hungarian - among other things on this board - online (I read it in E and I understand it as H). The 90% of the idioms are different in the two language.
You may see the result in the opposite direction (H to E)...

I smell another triple-dog dare coming on.

For example this 8 word sentence can not be translated at all. I understand the essence, after consulting with Urban Dictionary. (I hope I understand)

I could explain it to my wife, within 60-80 word. In this case, the word idiom make no sense at all (in Hungarian).

See this http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/semitic_idioms.htm. Apparently the evidence is clear that the Greek Bible is full of Semetic (Aramaic) Idioms and these are not purely Greek idioms.

[_Buffalo]

Can you provide ANY examples of shared idioms across very disparate languages? Does any other language have a word for word equivalent of "kick the bucket" meaning to die?

Well, clearly you have no idea what you are talking about then. The reason that people believe the original versions of the New Testament were written in Aramaic originally is because of the Semitic Idioms IN THE New Testament that were copied straight over into the Greek Bible word-for-word. To state definitively that these were purely Greek idioms is completely false. In fact, the Greek Bible is full of Semetic idioms actually. Oh, and I'm willing to provide a reference: http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/semitic_idioms.htm that substantiates exactly what I'm saying. I guess I win the bet.

You don't seem to understand what you've read. There is no reference to shared idioms, only Aramaic idioms copied into Greek. In fact, the text specifically differentiates Greek from Aramaic idioms as being two separate classes of idioms.

I'm not sure how much weight the site has, though. It appears to be a home-made hobby site, rather than a scholarly source.

[_Tobin]

You don't seem to understand what you've read. There is no reference to shared idioms, only Aramaic idioms copied into Greek. In fact, the text specifically differentiates Greek from Aramaic idioms as being two separate classes of idioms.

I'm not sure how much weight the site has, though. It appears to be a home-made hobby site, rather than a scholarly source.

Ok, I'll concede that point. The idiom in Matthew is an Aramaic idiom. Happy now?

[_Themis]

I understand that, but I think you are missing the point that we don't have any copies (at all) that support your contention.

Lack of them is what supports my contention.

Even if you were right, and there were multiple written originals - where are the copies of those originals to support your position? As far as I know, they don't exist. Since all the early copies of Matthew agree on this verse, I think we can be pretty certain it is accurate.

Even if some of the oldest text which come well after the event agree, that only would support that they come from the same source, not that it is a text written by someone who witnessed the event and wrote it down at that time.

[_Tobin]

I understand that, but I think you are missing the point that we don't have any copies (at all) that support your contention.

Lack of them is what supports my contention.

Even if you were right, and there were multiple written originals - where are the copies of those originals to support your position? As far as I know, they don't exist. Since all the early copies of Matthew agree on this verse, I think we can be pretty certain it is accurate.

Even if some of the oldest text which come well after the event agree, that only would support that they come from the same source, not that it is a text written by someone who witnessed the event and wrote it down at that time.

Well, unless another source as to what Jesus might have said is found, I think it is best to go with what we have instead of speculating about what he may have said. Couple that with the information I dug up on Semetic idioms in the Greek Bible, and I think there is a pretty solid case to be made that this indeed is what Jesus actually said.

[_ludwigm]

anything

( and was not read by Tobin )

See this http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/semitic_idioms.htm. Apparently the evidence is clear that the Greek Bible is full of Semetic (Aramaic) Idioms and these are not purely Greek idioms.

If a latin word (Lucifer, in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Nephi 24:12) could survive the translation from Greek or Aramaic to Nephite, and the other translation from Nephite to English, then I don't care Semitic idioms.

The identical quotes were copied from KJV.

If the victim of the traffic accident has no head, no doctor begin check the pulse or any vital sign.

[Guest]

Well, unless another source as to what Jesus might have said is found, I think it is best to go with what we have instead of speculating about what he may have said. Couple that with the information I dug up on Semetic idioms in the Greek Bible, and I think there is a pretty solid case to be made that this indeed is what Jesus actually said.

You are still missing the point. Where is the original text. The one that would have written down what they thought Jesus wrote. Was is it written as Jesus was saying it? If not, then as was already brought up(eidetic memories), you would not get an accurate word for word of what Jesus said, forgetting for the moment what language it was spoken in, and what languages it may have been translated in. Was it written by someone much later who was going on the memory of someone who claimed to be there, or someone who claimed they know what went on. Again there is no realistic chance of what we see in the KJV being an accurate portrayal of what Jesus may have said. What makes it worse is the same applies to the claimed event in the New World and what we see in the Book of Mormon. You would more wise to bet on the lottery. We really can't get around that the KJV was the source of this part of the Book of Mormon. Even most apologists are conceding this. They come up with other explanations of why they think Joseph copied it. You can buy into those if you want to, although I never found them very compelling.