Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Quasimodo]

Yes, I get the distinct impression that Moroni was depressed and just sat around all day waiting for the Lamanites to do him in. Seriously, you are going to take that approach? He travelled for a considerable amount of time (how long? years? idk). Do you just suppose he travelled in circles around the hill Cumorah that whole time close to where the Lamanites were to give them ample opportunity to do him in? I certainly wouldn't.

I don't believe that chapters of "Moroni's great journey from Panama to Palmyra" are to be found anywhere in the Book of Mormon. It's just weak speculation on the part of some apologists.

If one wants to invent different scenarios, though, why not have God tell Joseph Smith to catch a boat from NYC to Panama. He could then be directed to the real Hill Comorah and find the golden plates that Moroni buried there instead. Not to mention all those weapons, breastplates and swords that would have been scattered all over.

[_Tobin]

Yes, I get the distinct impression that Moroni was depressed and just sat around all day waiting for the Lamanites to do him in. Seriously, you are going to take that approach? He travelled for a considerable amount of time (how long? years? idk). Do you just suppose he travelled in circles around the hill Cumorah that whole time close to where the Lamanites were to give them ample opportunity to do him in? I certainly wouldn't.

I don't believe that chapters of "Moroni's great journey from Panama to Palmyra" are to be found anywhere in the Book of Mormon. It's just weak speculation on the part of some apologists.

If one wants to invent different scenarios, though, why not have God tell Joseph Smith to catch a boat from NYC to Panama. He could then be directed to the real Hill Comorah and find the golden plates that Moroni buried there instead. Not to mention all those weapons, breastplates and swords that would have been scattered all over.

If you are going to take that track, then why appear to Joseph Smith in a secluded wood at all? Why not have him go to the center of Palmyra or NYC and flatten the whole place in the process? That'll show those heathens who's god and who's not as they run fleeing. Bet they wouldn't have doubted him after that.

[_Molok]

Yes, because a man with the help of God can't do the impossible like come back to life or walk on water kind of impossible?

Correct. Unless you have seen some of this yourself, then please, do share.

[_Quasimodo]

If you are going to take that track, then why appear to Joseph Smith in a secluded wood at all? Why not have him go to the center of Palmyra or NYC and flatten the whole place in the process? That'll show those heathens who's god and who's not as they run fleeing. Bet they wouldn't have doubted him after that.

I like that story, but I think mine works better with known facts.

Joseph Smith sails back from Panama with the plates and makes up the part about finding them near Palmyra to avoid paying import duties on 60,000 dollars worth of gold (1820 prices). It's certainly plausible.

The fact that no record has ever been found of import duties being paid by Joseph Smith is good evidence that my version is true.

I think I'll consider becoming an apologist.

[_bcuzbcuz]

Under what conditions? You stated the gold plates weighed 200 lbs. I made no such assertion.

And well you shouldn't. There is nothing to indicate that the "golden plates" weighed 200 lbs....other than the replica of the plates found at Tanner's Bookstore in Salt Lake City. If you have read anything about these plates, they purport to be drawn up on measurements given by witnesses to the size of the plates. These plates are, however made of lead, which is lighter (less dense) than gold (by almost a factor of 2:1). And weigh approximately 200 lbs.

http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm

Granted Joseph never said the plates were pure gold, only "golden". But you can play around on the periodic table with alloy combinations that might bring a gold/other metal alloy to around the weight of lead.

Or you can rely on the many and varied witness reports from those who picked up the plates and related their guessed weights: From Joe's brother who guessed they weighed 60 lbs, to Joseph's wife who said she had to move them when cleaning house (Damn, Joseph left his dirty plates lying around again!) Whichever weight you choose, remember Joseph ran with them under his arm while avoiding three assailants.

Wikipedia has a fairly well outlined list of those who saw and hefted the plates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates

But no matter which weight you pick you can then compare the "golden plates" to the Kinderhook plates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates

Did Joseph or did he not translate them???

[_SteelHead]

So for the plates to weigh in at around 60 lbs they would need to be made of an alloy about 4 times less dense than gold.

Any good candidates?

[_Tobin]

So for the plates to weigh in at around 60 lbs they would need to be made of an alloy about 4 times less dense than gold. Any good candidates?

Steel. :)

[_malkie]

Oh, I'd quibble with use of 'objective' in that sentence.

I used the word "objective" to describe a non-Mormon reading the book. Someone that doesn't come to it with a prior believe that Joseph Smith was truly quoting God in his translations. Someone that is trying to evaluate whether or not the book is true or fiction.
The book itself seems to imply that the events took place in what is now upstate New York. I think (from what I've read) that most Mormons believe that too. I believe that recent apologists have come up with a Meso-American theory to explain away some difficult facts.

Ok, I quibble with the use of the word "objective" in that context then.

Doesn't the Hill Cumorah Pageant still take place near Palmyra, NY?

If your point is to demonstrate that you are correct because this map identifies the actual location of the hill Cumorah in NY, then you are mistaken. According to this map (http://www.bookofmormongeography.org/files/u1/tonawanda-watershed-map.jpg) the hill Cumorah would be located in Niagara county to the west of Orleans county, while the actual hill Cumorah is located in Wayne county, far to the east of Orleans county (and Monroe county!). Shall we look at another earlier attempt at a map that was commonly passed out with the Book of Mormon?


This map claims that the hill Cumorah/Ramah is actually in Canada.

Can we put aside for the moment the idea that a map can claim something?

And can you point me to a reference for your statement that one of the maps you use here "was commonly passed out with the Book of Mormon"?

I think that the map(s) can be used to demonstrate that there were many real places in the vicinity of Palmyra with names that could feasibly have been used as models for Book of Mormon place names. The first map is "modernmap.gif", and the second is "mormonmap.gif".
Read a little further in the website that you got the maps at (mazeministry), and consider the statement that "There are more than two dozen Book of Mormon names that are the same as or nearly the same as modern geographical locations.".
---
Do you think that the people who build and run the church visitors' centres, though they do seem to be quite definite about it, could be completely mistaken about the location of the "real" hill where the Book of Mormon events took place? On the Hill Cumorah website (CJCLDS visitors' centre) you can read:

Hill Cumorah is the most notable of many hills, or drumlins, in New York State's Finger Lakes region. The hill figures prominently in events that led to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In A.D. 421, Moroni, the last survivor of a great civilization that had inhabited the Americas since about 600 B.C., buried in this hill a set of gold plates on which was recorded the history of his people. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them and published them as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

Since the pageant on the hill depicts events that are described in the Book of Mormon, you would think that the people at the visitors' centre would be careful to point out that this hill Cumorah may not be the same hill Cumorah that is talked about in the Book of Mormon - either that the hill where these events took place is in Guatemala or thereabouts, or that they have no idea at all where that hill may be, but that this probably is not it.

[_Tobin]

Do you think that the people who build and run the church visitors' centres, though they do seem to be quite definite about it, could be completely mistaken about the location of the "real" hill where the Book of Mormon events took place?

Yes, they are mistaken. They should just call it Mormon hill where the Book of Mormon was buried. And the comment I stated to the 2nd map was a error on my part and I have corrected it. It is as you stated - just possible locations of Book of Mormon events.

[_bcuzbcuz]

Do you think that the people who build and run the church visitors' centres, though they do seem to be quite definite about it, could be completely mistaken about the location of the "real" hill where the Book of Mormon events took place?

Yes, they are mistaken. They should just call it Mormon hill where the Book of Mormon was buried. And the comment I stated to the 2nd map was a error on my part and I have corrected it. It is as you stated - just possible locations of Book of Mormon events.

Somewhere you get to a point where the LDS blanket of security has more holes than blanket.

Sing-along now! "I say potato, the Book of Mormon says no potato, I say banana, the Book of Mormon says no banana. I say Cumorah, You say No-Cumorah. I say New York and you say Panama. I say no-plates and you say Golden plates. I say no-steel and you say yes-steel.
Let's call the whole thing off.

Aren't you tired of running around trying to fill in all the gaps?