An Interesting Discussion with the Bishop

[Snazzip]

Last summer, I went on a 30 mile backpacking trip with my two older boys with our ward scout troop. One afternoon, one of the other adults on the trip joined me at the rear of the hiking train (I’m not a fast hiker, slow and steady is my thing). Anyway, we got to talking and eventually we began talking about the church. For some reason, I opened up to him about what I really thought about the church and some of the things I didn’t believe anymore, and that basically at this point in my life, I’m was happy with my minimal participation, happy to be just left alone.

Well, fast forward to a month or so ago, and this brother on the hike was made Bishop of the ward. “Oh great” was my first cynical thought. Now I get to be a project since he knows my story. But to his credit, he treated me normal and nothing has changed. I usually only attend Sacrament meeting, but this week, since one of my sons was advancing in the priesthood and needed to be set apart, I went to all three meetings. (I actually did the advancement setting apart and surprisingly, despite knowing some of my issues, the Bishop didn’t say anything).

However, after sacrament meeting, the secretary came over and asked to set up a meeting with the Bishop. “Here we go”, I thought , might as well get this over and done with. So last night I met with him.

We started with some chit chat, and then it came down to why he wanted to talk. He said that since our conversation on the hike, he has been thinking about me (no gaydar alerts went off, lol). Of course, now that he was Bishop, he wanted to know what he could do for me.

Basically my position boiled down to the following points:
1) There is nothing to “do” for me or “with” me at this point. I said I had arrived at a place in my life where the church doesn’t hold the same spot for me as it once did. I view it really as a place for children, youth, and new converts, people who need the structure, but not necessarily for everyone at every point in their life. I said I believed that God (if there is one) can lead people where they are needed or where they will learn the most, and that may be into the church or away from it.
2) The changes in my thoughts and beliefs have stemmed from the fact that I don’t have a testimony, never did, and that due to the lack of spiritual experiences in my life, I’ve had to reevaluate what I thought about God, life, religion, etc.

He mainly just took notes and listened, but then wanted to know what I thought about the following topics.

God – I told him that yes, I believe that there is something out there. Not sure what, who, or it, but the collective experience of religion and spirituality tells me that there is something out there bigger than ourselves. I’m open to that being a divine person, and universal force or entity, or whatever.

Jesus – I said I think he was an actual person, though what he exactly is and did upon the earth, I don’t know. He could have been just a very wise philosopher or the son of God. I like his teachings about love and service and charity, but other than that, I don’t know.

Joseph Smith and the Restoration – I believe that Joseph Smith experienced “something”. A religious awakening, an epiphany, a visitation, I don’t know. But based on the changes to the account over the years, it was something he continued to have new thoughts about. But I also said that I don’t think we have the same church as back in his day. I can envision God or Jesus or both in a quiet grove in the forest appearing to a young boy. But I don’t see God or Jesus building multi-billion dollar retail malls. The church back in the day was full of life, vigor, revelations, openness to new ideas and thoughts, but today we are a corporate religion run by committee and bureaucracy. I’d love to be a part of that early church when things were new and exciting, but today, it is all about uniformity, control, and image. I don't know that we are the "restored" anything anymore.

These are basically the temple recommend questions “Do you have a testimony of…” type stuff and I take it the Bishop was trying to assess where I was relative to them. I told him I had a lot more heretical ideas out there but these were enough for now (like reincarnation/multiple probations). Somewhere in there I had mentioned that I had new perspectives that I thought were beneficial, and he asked me what I saw as beneficial about them. First of all, I’m much less judgmental about other people, other beliefs, and other religions. In my hardcore TBM days, you could be a good person, but man, if you smoked or drank, you had serious problems you had a big asterisk* by your name, a qualifier on you and your value. All of those judgments are gone as I’ve been humbled and realize I know nothing.

I also iterated that at the end of the day, if there is an afterlife, I don’t believe I’ll be judged on what I think or believe about such afterlife, or what ordinances I did or did not have, or the thoughts in my head. I will be judged by how I treated other people, my family and friends, and the people I came across during my life. If I believed something and I'm wrong and I don’t make it to the tallest tower of the celestial kingdom because of it (given there is such a place) I won’t care if I can say I treated people with love and honor.

The Bishop just sat and listened to me expound upon what I thought and believed. No judgment, no weird faces, no anger or disappoint. When I was done, he sat back as basically said “You are a good man, and probably will be the next bishop.”

I laughed of course, but he said loving others charitably and not judging them are the two most important things anyway and I appeared to have those down (I don’t really, but maybe in concept).

Of course, he said that he personally was coming from a different place than me. He felt God’s hand in the things he did and in the church, and this is what has led him through his life. But he also recognized that given my circumstances and lack of spiritual confirmation regarding the church, I had to do what I had to do. No pressure to come to more meetings or to be more active. We parted friendly with talk of going to lunch sometime and maybe a round of golf.

There is always the possibility that this is part of an elaborate scheme to activate or excommunicate me, but knowing him, I think it was genuine.

Anyway, just thought I would share this. Not sure if it is interesting to anyone else.

[_Fence Sitter]

Great story Black Moclips,

I had a similar talk with a bishop a few years back, where he mostly listened. He was a great bishop.

The last time I talked to a bishop was when we first moved into our current ward. He visited my house once, asked me if there was any chance I might reactivate and then never talked to me again about the church.

They come in all kinds just like any other people.

[_consiglieri]

Thanks so much for sharing that story, BlackMo.

You have a good bishop.

And he just may be right about your next calling, because you would be a good bishop, too.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Yoda]

Great story, Black Moclips!

Thanks for sharing!

Just out of curiosity, is your bishop relatively young? Say...under 40?

[_Zelder]

That's a good story. My last bishop and his wife are about the most self-sanctimonious, self-righteous, judgemental Mormons I've ever known. He was recently released after five and a half years of service and I said a prayer of gratitude in my heart and I felt a great burden come off my shoulders that day.

[_Yoda]

That's a good story. My last bishop and his wife are about the most self-sanctimonious, self-righteous, judgemental Mormons I've ever known. He was recently released after five and a half years of service and I said a prayer of gratitude in my heart and I felt a great burden come off my shoulders that day.

That's too bad.

What do you think of the new bishop?

[_Black Moclips]

Great story, Black Moclips!

Thanks for sharing!

Just out of curiosity, is your bishop relatively young? Say...under 40?

I would say early 40s at most.

[_Zelder]

That's a good story. My last bishop and his wife are about the most self-sanctimonious, self-righteous, judgemental Mormons I've ever known. He was recently released after five and a half years of service and I said a prayer of gratitude in my heart and I felt a great burden come off my shoulders that day.

That's too bad.

What do you think of the new bishop?

It is too bad. He didn't want to get released either, sheesh. I felt a miserable burden come off my shoulders the day he was released.

The new bishop is good. He's super humble and his wife is super nice. I had never had a bishop I didn't like untill the last one. I hope I never have to struggle with bad feeling toward a church leader again. It is an awful experience.

[_Rubicon]

I'm "new" here, but only because I forgot my username and password (and the email account I associated with my account). Obviously, I haven't been a regular poster, or I wouldn't have forgotten this stuff. I'm also a bishop in my fifth year (and I'm under 40, liz) :) , and a TBM with extensive apologetic experience. What Black Moclips has described here, in my experience, happens in every ward in the Church: people whose faith and confidence in the existence of God, the atonement, and the Restoration is shaken. As many of you know, some TBMs can't imagine this and are skeptical that this can be the case, and I think that people's awareness of it is related to how approachable they are. I am personally aware of several members of my ward, men and women, who are active in the sense of church attendance and serving in callings, but who struggle with doubts and disbelief. Other bishops have been skeptical that there could be more than a very occasional person here or there like this, and I have told them that they have people like this in their wards. Your story reminded me of some discussions I have had with some people in my ward.

We were at pack night, and I walked out into the foyer for some reason and saw a sister from the ward approaching the doors. She was very distraught and couldn't talk. I ushered her into my office, and it took several minutes to calm her down to the point where she could talk (she was nearly hyperventilating). Her husband had just told her that he didn't believe any of the gospel, Restoration-related or Atonement-related. This particular sister is among the top three most innocent and Christ-like people I have ever met in my life, and her sky had crashed --- her hopes and aspirations were dashed in one moment. They are sealed in the temple and have two small children, and she had come to the church to look for me. I'm glad I happened to be there and she didn't have to call, get a hold of me, and wait for me to get there (I live quite some distance from the church building).

I asked her for more background to this conversation, and it was much more encouraging than I had assumed. I asked her if he treated her and her kids well, and she emphatically said yes. He had been struggling with these gnawing doubts for years and had finally told her because she asked him why he would never go to the temple with her (and had not since their sealing). He made it clear to her that this wouldn't change anything in their home, and that he would continue to attend church with them, say family prayer, read scriptures, have Family Home
Evening, etc. He assured her that he would not "taint" their children with his doubts and unbelief. I told her that he is a good man, and that I have full confidence and hope that things will work out. I told her that I would like to meet with him, and asked her if I could let him know what she had shared with me. She agreed.

I met with him for over two hours and had a good talk. He was a convert and had grown up with a strong LDS family that wasn't his. He served his mission and had a good experience, but insists that he never really felt the Spirit, he was just engaged in a good, unified cause and was surrounded by good influences (i.e., this family that he spent his teenage years with). He insisted that he has never felt anything while praying or at other times. I let him know, first, that I love him, and second, that this doesn't change anything as far me; that I don't think less
of him, and that it's good that I know about this. While he isn't currently able to hold a temple recommend (because of the first four questions dealing with testimony about the basics), I felt
moved upon to ask him if he would be willing to accept a calling that would involve teaching and working with the young men (quorum advisor). He was surprised, given what I knew, but said he was willing if I was all right with it. I told him (and feel) that I don't think he's any threat to the testimonies or faith of other members, and he assured me that he would never do anything to undermine anyone else's faith. And I have personally sat in on some lessons he has taught, which were great. I remain hopeful and confident that he will remember things that he does know, but has become confused about and lost confidence.

More recently, I met with a young married couple who have lost their faith and testimony of the Church, but who are well-disposed towards the Church (they consider themselves to culturally be Mormon, and have no desire to tear down the Church or "get back" at it). Their concerns stem much more from Church history items (polygamy, etc.), and they were very suprised and happy to learn that I knew everything they did (Fanny Alger in 1835, Joseph's teenage and polyandrous wives, etc.). We talked about a number of their "hang-ups," and I referred them to some articles and papers I have written. I invited them to begin attending Church again, and they are considering it. They both really like the temple and would like to go back, but obviously can't from a "first four questions" standpoint, so we discussed what it would take to "get there." For instance, the wife said her answer to "Do you believe in God . . ." would be "I would like to, I really would," and I told her that this is a perfectly good starting point, but that we would both need something more definite as far as a statement of faith. :) They were suprised when I told them that I know a man who firmly (literally) believes in the Restoration, but also believes in a trinitarian concept of God, and that from a "worthiness" standpoint, this would not be a deal-breaker, for instance. Yes, LDS doctrine is that the Godhead is three distinct individuals, but personal deviation on that would not keep one from making covenants (as long as one can truthfully say that one does believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost).

They wondered if they would be hampered in commenting or sharing thoughts at church, and I told them (truthfully) that I didn't think they could do anything "harmful," even if they did bring up "controversial" or "advanced" historical items, but that I trusted their judgment and discretion (neither of them, by nature, would seek to rock the boat). My ward is perhaps much better than some in that they have been exposed to quite a bit in an atmosphere of faith, and they would be able to handle "sticky" concerns or questions brought up in a class. At one time, our ward had four FAIR list members in it.

I discussed their preferred level of contact with the ward, and told them that I would use my influence to try to maintain it. We remain in good contact (I visited about two weeks ago), and I have high hopes for them. The important thing, I think, is that they know that I love them, that I understand, and that "where they're at" is "okay." I want them to strengthen/re-develop their faith and confidence, but they are welcome, wanted, and appreciated. The sister said, as I left their home, that it "didn't turn out at all as she expected it to" (I had told them on the phone why I wanted to meet with them).

*And,* "the Church is true," with everything this encompasses (the foundational events really happened, resurrected angels really transferred priesthood keys, Book of Mormon people, places, and events really existed/took place, etc.). If members of the Church struggle with this, that's okay, and we'll try to help those who want to know the truth for themselves learn for themselves. Sometimes this involves respecting people who have arrived at different answers, and this needs to be respected.

[_bcspace]

Anyway, just thought I would share this. Not sure if it is interesting to anyone else.

Sounds like a typical Bishop.