Approaching religion without feeling embattled

[_Franktalk]

I think that everyone who starts on a walk of faith changes in some way. Even Christ knew that not everyone would get a solid foundation of faith. Some do fall by the way side. More than anything else it is a personal choice which guides us along. If we choose to accept an all powerful God then I do think we have a good shot at faith. But if we rest in the creation then faith is like catching fog in a bucket.

The people that I have seen do a quick rise then a crash and burn all had preconceived notions of what and who God is. They also had strong ties to their existing lifestyle. They could not cut the cords to the world so the world dragged them back home.

I have a problem with what you refer to as rational thought processes. Seems to me that some world stuff may be in there?

[_moksha]

... preconceived notions of what and who God is.

Notions we are born with?

I have a problem with what you refer to as rational thought processes. Seems to me that some world stuff may be in there?

Many of those appealing notions since the Ascent of Man that I have learned about. I would like to think that the really good stuff of how we relate to one another had a heavenly inspiration.

[_Samantabhadra]

What if religion was approached in the first place as something that could potentially enhance your life with its teachings while at the same time realizing you are not there to be sold a bill of goods, but rather to be a participant in that enhancement?

I think this is good as a starting place, but runs the danger of falling into what Chogyam Trungpa called "Spiritual Materialism," that is, making religion or spirituality into just another way that we enhance ourselves, improve ourselves, which ultimately only serves to prop up and reinforce our ego. Genuine spiritual practice has as its aim the complete and utter destruction of our ego and all our self-oriented habitual cognitive patterns; if we approach a religion as a means to make ourselves "better," we can very easily remain stuck in the trap of thinking that there is some definite thing we need to do or be or become or accomplish. In other words, it is important to remember that goal-oriented thinking is the problem, and thinking in terms of the goal of "spiritual enhancement" is just another form of goal-oriented thinking.

[_Franktalk]

Notions we are born with?

I think the ones we are born with are more spiritual. But man tends to cloud everything with worldly knowledge. If indeed this is a temporary stop then we should place the knowledge of this world in proper context. If we give it too much power we take that power from somewhere.

Many of those appealing notions since the Ascent of Man that I have learned about. I would like to think that the really good stuff of how we relate to one another had a heavenly inspiration.

I do believe that good has grown but I also believe that evil has grown. The balance has never been lost in my view. I do believe that God will pour out His Spirit on man but at the same time the powers of evil will be allowed to manifest. I am not sure man is ready for that. Fire from heaven, raise the dead, etc. It will shatter many. And many have been trained to follow earthly power.

[_Roger Morrison]

Notions we are born with?

I think the ones we are born with are more spiritual. But man tends to cloud everything with worldly knowledge. If indeed this is a temporary stop then we should place the knowledge of this world in proper context. If we give it too much power we take that power from somewhere.

Where does your notion, "Notions we are born with" come from? What "notions" might they be?

Many of those appealing notions since the Ascent of Man that I have learned about. I would like to think that the really good stuff of how we relate to one another had a heavenly inspiration.

I do believe that good has grown but I also believe that evil has grown. The balance has never been lost in my view. I do believe that God will pour out His Spirit on man but at the same time the powers of evil will be allowed to manifest. I am not sure man is ready for that. Fire from heaven, raise the dead, etc. It will shatter many. And many have been trained to follow earthly power.

"Powers of evil will be allowed..."??? Please explain. Man not ready for what? Humans seem to have dealt rather effectively with all other challenges encountered. Or we wouldn't be here. Would we??

[_Franktalk]

"Powers of evil will be allowed..."??? Please explain. Man not ready for what? Humans seem to have dealt rather effectively with all other challenges encountered. Or we wouldn't be here. Would we??[/b]

That view is from Darwin and evolutionary thought. But I refer to scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-11

King James Version (KJV)

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

In time the Temple will stand again and in the Holy of Holies Satan's man will stand and announce that he is god. In verse 6 Satan is withheld but in time he will not be. In verse 7 "he" letteth but in time will be taken out of the way. Then the powers of Satan will be released. The "he" may be Michael the archangel.

[_Themis]

Religion is approached in this manner.
And for the most part religion does not infringe upon rational thought processes. In fact, throughout history, and today, the most innovative "thinkers" have been religious.
The idea that religion and rational thought are incompatible is a an immature, and rather foolish, notion to begin with. We are able to eat and enjoy both apples and oranges.

Not really correct. The dark ages come to mind.

[_Themis]

There are plenty of things that help people feel happy and have a full life. Community is one of those things, and church is able to provide a strong, stable community that benefits people in a lot of important ways. That doesn't mean they are right, but these are things atheists should be looking closely at so that they can incorporate good practices into their lives.

These are some of the real benefits that religion can provide, and why many atheists and agnostics seek community groups or are organizing them.

[_Roger Morrison]

Frank, thanks for your explanation. However I can't / don't accept it. Obviously we are in different camps. So enjoy your state and I'll enjoy mine. . .

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Themis,
You I can come closer to agreeing with :-)
However I suggest there is a difference between Church & Religion. So using them interchangeably doesn't serve good purpose; in my opinion???
Religion being about theology.

Church may be a collection of religious folks, or a structure wherein they meet. Religion deals with mysticism. Church, as you suggest is about community. Which a good Church addresses quite well IF/When they don't over-do the religious thing :-) Unitarians might be a good example of that...

LDS, on the other hand, tend to over-do their religious element, which somewhat sabotages their community elements. ie youths often leaned on heavily by critical adults...