Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_malkie]

OK, I'll broaden the search. This goes out to anyone who reads this posting.

I'm looking for any tooth, bone fragment or skeltal remains of any horse related animal existent in North or South America betwwen the last ice age and the first European conquests. Just reference either an internet site or Science magazine edition or any peer reviewed editorial that claims horse remains.

Hell, I'll even accept scat remains if they can be dated.

There is nothing published yet, but I suspect your stated assumption is going to proven false. There is no good reason to state all the horses in NA died out 10,000 years ago. In fact, there is a lot of tangential evidence to suggest this was not the case at all and early finds of buried horse remains were destroyed or not tested because it was assumed that horses arrived after Columbus. However, I think within the next decade the assumption that there were no horses in NA will fall like all bad assumptions. When and if it does, will you become a Mormon bcuzbcuz?
http://philosophiesofmen.blogspot.com/2012/01/pre-columbian-horses.html

Where might we find that evidence? Does it include information about who destroyed the horse remains?

[Guest]

Where might we find that evidence? Does it include information about who destroyed the horse remains?

Again, it is only my suspicion. We will see in time. There are interesting outliers like this find http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_3510b187-f256-5b91-875e-b45c8865f14a.html, various accounts by the Nez Perce people that the Appaloosa (a breed that bears no similarities to spanish mustangs) were not given to them and that they have always raised them, and rock art from the Anasazi site (which definitely pre-dates Columbus) depicting horses being ridden and used in hunting game (and of course they going theory is these were added later).

[_Tobin]

It may possibly be shown that the horse did not go extinct around 8-10k years ago in the Americas, but it is interesting that you only point to a link that gives no evidence and is an apologetic site.

by the way the scientific community did not assume the horse went extinct. It was the evidence that lead them this way and has not changed to date. Accusing them of assumptions here is a dishonest apologetic from places like fair and farms.

Also, finding horses add not evidence for the Book of Mormon, but gets rid a one piece of evidence against(and not even one of the more important ones). Now finding brass plates written in Hebrew or Egyptian with the Law of Moses on them down in Meso-America would provide a huge piece of evidence for the Book of Mormon.

Really Themis. Who exactly postulated this theory and when? I'm very incredulous of the authorship and scholarly work that went into this "theory".

[_Themis]

Really Themis. Who exactly postulated this theory and when? I'm very incredulous of the authorship and scholarly work that went into this "theory".

? What theory are you talking about?

[_Tobin]

Really Themis. Who exactly postulated this theory and when? I'm very incredulous of the authorship and scholarly work that went into this "theory".

? What theory are you talking about?

The theory that all the horses died off 10,000 years ago and that the European horses, introduced by the Spanish, were the first horses in NA since then. What else? That is the prevailing "scientifically" proven and stamped "official" theory is it not? Such a stupid assumption in reality though. How can you possibly know that all the horses died off 10,000 years ago?

[_Quasimodo]

It may possibly be shown that the horse did not go extinct around 8-10k years ago in the Americas, but it is interesting that you only point to a link that gives no evidence and is an apologetic site.

by the way the scientific community did not assume the horse went extinct. It was the evidence that lead them this way and has not changed to date. Accusing them of assumptions here is a dishonest apologetic from places like fair and farms.

Also, finding horses add not evidence for the Book of Mormon, but gets rid a one piece of evidence against(and not even one of the more important ones). Now finding brass plates written in Hebrew or Egyptian with the Law of Moses on them down in Meso-America would provide a huge piece of evidence for the Book of Mormon.

Really Themis. Who exactly postulated this theory and when? I'm very incredulous of the authorship and scholarly work that went into this "theory".

Which theory?

There is certainly no evidence of horses in the Americas later that 9,000 years ago (end of the Pleistocene). The remains of Pleistocene horses are not rare. They are found all the time. No remains of horses later than that era are ever found (except modern horses that came with the Spanish, of course).

If horses did exist between those times, their bones would be plentiful and found on a daily basis. Every Native American site excavation would contain some evidence of horses. None do.

[_Buffalo]

Where might we find that evidence? Does it include information about who destroyed the horse remains?

Again, it is only my suspicion. We will see in time. There are interesting outliers like this find http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_3510b187-f256-5b91-875e-b45c8865f14a.html, various accounts by the Nez Perce people that the Appaloosa (a breed that bears no similarities to spanish mustangs) were not given to them and that they have always raised them, and rock art from the Anasazi site (which definitely pre-dates Columbus) depicting horses being ridden and used in hunting game (and of course they going theory is these were added later).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appaloosa

Domesticated horses with leopard complex spotting patterns have been depicted in art dating as far back as Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia, and the Han Dynasty in China; later depictions appeared in 11th-century France and 12th-century England.[24][25] French paintings from the 16th and 17th centuries show horses with spotted coats being used as riding horses, and other records indicate they were also used as coach horses at the court of Louis XIV of France.[26] In mid-18th-century Europe, there was a great demand for horses with the leopard complex spotting pattern among the nobility and royalty. These horses were used in the schools of horsemanship, for parade use, and other forms of display.[27] Modern horse breeds in Europe today that have leopard complex spotting include the Knabstrupper and the Pinzgau, or Noriker horse.[24]

The Spanish probably obtained spotted horses through trade with southern Austria and Hungary, where the color pattern was known to exist.[28] The Conquistadors and Spanish settlers then brought some vividly marked horses to the Americas when they first arrived in the early 16th century.[28][29] One horse with snowflake patterning was listed with the 16 horses brought to Mexico by Cortez,[30] and additional spotted horses were mentioned by Spanish writers by 1604.[31] Others arrived in the western hemisphere when spotted horses went out of style in late 18th-century Europe,[32] and were shipped to Mexico,[33] California and Oregon.[32]

The Anasazi rock art demonstrates that more recent additions were made, as evidenced by the horses themselves.

[_Quasimodo]

Buff, your avatar is missing. I miss the nickle.

[_Buffalo]

The theory that all the horses died off 10,000 years ago and that the European horses, introduced by the Spanish, were the first horses in NA since then. What else? That is the prevailing "scientifically" proven and stamped "official" theory is it not? Such a stupid assumption in reality though. How can you possibly know that all the horses died off 10,000 years ago?

Easily. By the complete dearth of American horse remains from 10,000 years ago to the time of the European invaders.

[_Quasimodo]

Again, it is only my suspicion. We will see in time. There are interesting outliers like this find http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_3510b187-f256-5b91-875e-b45c8865f14a.html, various accounts by the Nez Perce people that the Appaloosa (a breed that bears no similarities to spanish mustangs) were not given to them and that they have always raised them, and rock art from the Anasazi site (which definitely pre-dates Columbus) depicting horses being ridden and used in hunting game (and of course they going theory is these were added later).

Rock art is a hobby of mine, Tobin. I haven't heard of this depiction. Could you send a link?