Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_Tobin]

Where might we find that evidence? Does it include information about who destroyed the horse remains?

Again, it is only my suspicion. We will see in time. There are interesting outliers like this find http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_3510b187-f256-5b91-875e-b45c8865f14a.html, various accounts by the Nez Perce people that the Appaloosa (a breed that bears no similarities to spanish mustangs) were not given to them and that they have always raised them, and rock art from the Anasazi site (which definitely pre-dates Columbus) depicting horses being ridden and used in hunting game (and of course they going theory is these were added later).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appaloosa

The Spanish probably obtained spotted horses through trade with southern Austria and Hungary, where the color pattern was known to exist.[28] The Conquistadors and Spanish settlers then brought some vividly marked horses to the Americas when they first arrived in the early 16th century.[28][29] One horse with snowflake patterning was listed with the 16 horses brought to Mexico by Cortez,[30] and additional spotted horses were mentioned by Spanish writers by 1604.[31] Others arrived in the western hemisphere when spotted horses went out of style in late 18th-century Europe,[32] and were shipped to Mexico,[33] California and Oregon.[32]

Supposition.

The Anasazi rock art demonstrates that more recent additions were made, as evidenced by the horses themselves.

Supposition.
Wow Buffalo, you counter my supposition with citations of more supposition. Thank you for that. Now we have a lot of supposition and still no facts.

[_Tobin]

Again, it is only my suspicion. We will see in time. There are interesting outliers like this find http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_3510b187-f256-5b91-875e-b45c8865f14a.html, various accounts by the Nez Perce people that the Appaloosa (a breed that bears no similarities to spanish mustangs) were not given to them and that they have always raised them, and rock art from the Anasazi site (which definitely pre-dates Columbus) depicting horses being ridden and used in hunting game (and of course they going theory is these were added later).

Rock art is a hobby of mine, Tobin. I haven't heard of this depiction. Could you send a link?

http://www.desertusa.com/newut/du_newut_vvc.html

[_Themis]

The theory that all the horses died off 10,000 years ago and that the European horses, introduced by the Spanish, were the first horses in NA since then. What else? That is the prevailing "scientifically" proven and stamped "official" theory is it not? Such a stupid assumption in reality though. How can you possibly know that all the horses died off 10,000 years ago?

You need to expand your scientific understanding beyond fair and farms. The reason they conclude Horses went extinct is that they do find them for certain time periods, and then a disappearance from the record. There was no assumption going into it that horses were extinct during certain times. This again is a dishonest apologetic from some LDS apologists.

[_Buffalo]

Supposition.
Wow Buffalo, you counter my supposition with citations of more supposition. Thank you for that. Now we have a lot of supposition and still no facts.

What I have is evidence, Tobin. All you have is supposition, contrary to objective facts.

[_Tobin]

There is certainly no evidence of horses in the Americas later that 9,000 years ago (end of the Pleistocene). The remains of Pleistocene horses are not rare. They are found all the time. No remains of horses later than that era are ever found (except modern horses that came with the Spanish, of course).
If horses did exist between those times, their bones would be plentiful and found on a daily basis. Every Native American site excavation would contain some evidence of horses. None do.

I don't think that is definitive in any way. We know that certain meso-american socieities and natives were not using horses when the Europeans arrived and did not recognize them. We do not know when the horse died out or if they died out completely. Your assumption is a generalized one in which horses were commonly used and in large numbers within these communities. That may simply not be the case at all. We may yet find select and specialized finds of animals (and I suspect we will) that will definitely show that the animals were present prior to Columbus arrival but not in large number or in very select communities in NA. I believe the tangential evidence points in that direction, but there is no proof yet.

[_Quasimodo]

http://www.desertusa.com/newut/du_newut_vvc.html

Oh, Newspaper rock. I am familiar with that one. The rider on a horse is not an Anasazi petroglyph. It's most likely Navajoe. The Anasazi disappeared nearly a thousand years ago. The petroglyph in the image is fairly new. One can tell by the fact that there is no patina on the engravings. Older petroglyphs start looking a little darker after several hundred years.

Honestly, Tobin, this has no value as proof of horses in the Book of Mormon.

[_Buffalo]

There is certainly no evidence of horses in the Americas later that 9,000 years ago (end of the Pleistocene). The remains of Pleistocene horses are not rare. They are found all the time. No remains of horses later than that era are ever found (except modern horses that came with the Spanish, of course).
If horses did exist between those times, their bones would be plentiful and found on a daily basis. Every Native American site excavation would contain some evidence of horses. None do.

I don't think that is definitive in any way. We know that certain meso-american socieities and natives were not using horses when the Europeans arrived and did not recognize them. We do not know when the horse died out or if they died out completely. Your assumption is a generalized one in which horses were commonly used and in large numbers within these communities. That may simply not be the case at all. We may yet find select and specialized finds of animals (and I suspect we will) that will definitely show that the animals were present prior to Columbus arrival but not in large number or in very select communities in NA. I believe the tangential evidence points in that direction, but there is no proof yet.

How do you think that scientists determine when animals go extinct, Tobin?

So far you've provided zero evidence of precolumbian horses. Do you have anything you're holding back?

[_Tobin]

Supposition.
Wow Buffalo, you counter my supposition with citations of more supposition. Thank you for that. Now we have a lot of supposition and still no facts.

What I have is evidence, Tobin. All you have is supposition, contrary to objective facts.

Yeah, and your "evidence" contains words like probably and dismisses real evidence because it doesn't fit the assumption in the case of the rock art. If that is evidence, then I have evidence that pigs can fly.

[_Tobin]

How do you think that scientists determine when animals go extinct, Tobin? So far you've provided zero evidence of precolumbian horses. Do you have anything you're holding back?

Yes, because a lack of evidence to-date proves that something never existed. I wonder in a thousand years if they will be able to prove that you ever existed?

[Guest]

Yeah, and your "evidence" contains words like probably and dismisses real evidence because it doesn't fit the assumption in the case of the rock art. If that is evidence, then I have evidence that pigs can fly.

In what way is it evidence of horse for a certain time period? This would be helpful.