The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_Franktalk]

Roger,

You must realize that God does not force anyone to make a decision one way or another. He may give you help or set conditions so that you may be led to truth but He will not make you believe. And of course God does love us so even when we turn from Him He loves us. But respecting choice He will let us choose hell over heaven. Many in the world don't see a choice. They instead see the creation and use their senses to determine truth. For them they are so wrapped in the creation that they can't even imagine another choice. They see the whole thing as foolishness. That failure to seek is not the responsibility of God. That is ours. Many think that it is God's responsibility to prove He exist. But the creation itself is the proof. The fact that the creation exist is enough. It is man that explains away God by saying that everything came from nothing. It is man that says that life is an accident. The desire to explain away these questions comes from the embrace of the creation. The desire to seek God as the unseen comes from the rejection of the creation as the ultimate reality. Again a choice.

[_Franktalk]

Many people read the Old Testament and come away with the feeling that God is somehow arbitrary and angry. In each age on the earth the spirits of His children come here to experience good and evil. Many people embraced evil in one form or another. They still do today. For each act of sin we must pay a price for that act. This is all laid out in the New Testament. The price can be applied on the earth while we are in the flesh or it can be done after death. It is an act of mercy to subject the flesh to tribulation, it is quick and when done in this dream state is not as real as we imagine. It is our own attachment to the world that gives pain and suffering such a high place and something to avoid at all cost, even our soul. But scripture is clear that suffering in the name of Christ is a blessing. And suffering for another will bring blessings on us as well. The scriptures are written for people of the world to stumble. This issue with God in the Old Testament is just one of many places that people stumble.

The modern man stumbles as well. Man has developed many systems of belief that entices man to view the world as the ultimate reality. The naturalist movement of the late 1700's has manifest into modern geology, astrophysics, and biology. These three areas of thought give man a view of this reality that does not include a Creator. It is a godless ideology that is wrapped by the idea that it is man that sits at the top of the natural food chain. This places man as God. For all of the arguments the bottom line is that each person who embraces a godless ideology has rejected God.

So how do people who say they have believed fall from their beliefs? It is quite simple. They embrace the path to unbelief. At some point in their life there came a moment in which they felt they were at a crossroad. Down one path they would ignore the world and its logic, many people of faith would help them it they cried out for help. On another path the world cried out for them to abandon their silly beliefs and embrace the ideas of men, many men would help them down this path to the world. Many on this site really don't understand me and what I say. I come from such a distant belief system that I appear as illogical and arbitrary. I can understand that view. I refuse to compromise my position. I will not keep one foot in the world and one foot in religious faith. There are some who do this and they are playing a game in which they them self are the great arbitrator of knowledge. Scripture talks about these people.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

So the question remains. Just what is the church to do so members will not leave? My advice would be to pray for guidance and if guidance does not come then do nothing. Because if it comes from man it will always make things worse.

[Guest]

Shabbat Shalom Dear Frank!

Remember that Jesus said: My kingdom is not of this world.

What if each person was ruled directly from within, by Christ in dwelling? Why would we then need an external king?

I offer that God seeks to rule each creature from within themselves. The Law as an external rule is established in a world until all beings of that world are born again, are ruled by Christ from within. The Law thus stands until all is accomplished.

If you recall, the only reason that God gave the children of Israel a king is because they begged for one. The desire of God was to be their personal king, so that no external king was needed.

This world presently is a world of Law, a world needing external governing, thus Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world.

Think about it. If it was God's plan to send an external king, why has one not come?

I believe it is God's plan instead that we evolve so that we might receive Christ personally, no longer needing external governing. (The image of New Jerusalem in Revelation is a vision of each of us, as temples of God, with Christ seated on the throne within.)

We each have a higher Soul, a part of us that exists presently in Christ, in the Kingdom, and when this part of us is received, we being born of Spirit, we each will be governed through this Higher Self or Christ. Thus, no external King will then be needed for beings who have been born of the Spirit, or those who are governed by Christ and the Holy Spirit that indwells.

And so if I might be blunt, those looking for a direct external rule of Christ are not looking for the true kingdom of Christ, a kingdom of those born of the Spirit, but a Kingdom of the Law.

This points to the dream state of this world, a world of external governing. Such a world is only temporary, until the souls of the beings of that world have evolved sufficiently to be born of the Spirit and ruled directly from within by Christ.

May all who receive Christ become children of God, no longer needing an external ruler.

Sheryl

[_Roger Morrison]

Roger,

You must realize that God does not force anyone to make a decision one way or another. He may give you help or set conditions so that you may be led to truth but He will not make you believe. And of course God does love us so even when we turn from Him He loves us. But respecting choice He will let us choose hell over heaven. Many in the world don't see a choice. They instead see the creation and use their senses to determine truth. For them they are so wrapped in the creation that they can't even imagine another choice. They see the whole thing as foolishness. That failure to seek is not the responsibility of God. That is ours. Many think that it is God's responsibility to prove He exist. But the creation itself is the proof. The fact that the creation exist is enough. It is man that explains away God by saying that everything came from nothing. It is man that says that life is an accident. The desire to explain away these questions comes from the embrace of the creation. The desire to seek God as the unseen comes from the rejection of the creation as the ultimate reality. Again a choice.

Frank, I would like to think that we might share some common-sense ground. However, the more you expound your theories re creation, God's existence, and man's foolishness I see that we very likely never will. . .
But I do remain curious. You said you were a Christian for 6 years & a Mormon for 1 year. Does that make you a 7 year Christian?
Some of your God statements are not Mormon doctrine. What kind of a M are you?
Good luck in your choices. . .
Regards, Roger

[_sheryl]

Hi Sheryl!

Indeed, the Kingdom of God is already upon the earth. I believe the earth exists within the Kingdom of God. However, there is a veil which hides the Kingdom from our eyes and from our spiritual memories; thus the need for us to be reborn...or for our spiritual self to awaken.

We are taught that it is the Holy Ghost who makes the transition through the veil, communicating and witnessing and revealing spiritual Truth to us. He is God's source for all Truth upon the earth (i.e., to penetrate the veil, if you will). The Holy Ghost has the power and authority to do this; there is no other. Therefore, man does not have this power; though, through faith, man is able to obtain Truth witnessed and revealed to him by the Holy Ghost.

I see faith as an active and progressing and growing thing. It is not a one-time exercise when we first "believe". The more we allow our faith to continue to seek Truth, the more God instructs the Holy Ghost to reveal to us. Faith, like the Almighty God, like our Resurrected Savior, like the Holy Ghost, are living. Faith is vital, or else it has died within us.

Praise God for His Wisdom, and for the Wisdom which He longs to share with us; which He DOES share with us when we sincerely seek Him!! No church on earth can claim exclusivity to God's ear and blessings, except for the church of the Lamb of God. In God's eyes there are only two churches; the church of the Lamb of God, and the church of Satan. I am beginning to think that the church of the Lamb of God is for our spirit; and the church of Satan is where our physical self may be dwelling. Perhaps a better way to explain this is that they are both spirit places---it is just that in one our spirit has awakened and we are following Christ. As spirits, our walk is in the spirit regardless of whether we have been reborn; however, if we have not awakened, we walk in the church of the Devil. Also, depending on what the source of our actions are (be they for good, or be they for the world/evil/Satan) is what determines which church we are in at any given moment. Mankind journeys in both of them...in one or the other. Faith, which begins the awakening of our spirit self, allows us to learn to travel more frequently in the church of the Lamb of God; exposing the church of Satan to our spirit. Without faith being alive and living in us, we cannot see the difference; thus we walk in blindness and cannot enter into the rest which is promised to the faith-FULL.

When we have entered our rest through our walk in faith, the world has less and less hold on us. In fact, our spirit self remains with God and His Kingdom when we are more fully awake. It is our physical self that then remains in the Creation....still able to sin, and thus able to continue to teach our spirit the things we are to learn while in our mortal state. Once we have been spiritually awakened, it is our spirit that cannot sin anymore. However, since our physical self still sins, we must continue to repent, or "fix" and realign our actions to be in the straight and narrow path which aligns with God's will. Wow, as I type these thoughts out, it helps me to better understand what is actually happening!

His love, His plan for us, His purpose for the Creation and for placing us here....how awesome!! And how much more there is yet to know about His Kingdom. I look forward to immortality and release from the physical bondage of the flesh, when we will no longer see only through a glass darkly, and our spirits are freed from the veil.

Shalom by beloved friend!!

jo

Shalom my dear friend!

As I was reading your words, it came to mind that the church of Satan is the external Church, the Church of the Law, the Church of knowledge of good and evil, given for the evolution of our souls. The Church of God is the Ecclesia or called out ones, those no longer needing an external Church - thus they are called out - for they have been born of Spirit and are governed by the Spirit that lives within.

And I would say that most of us still reside in the Church of Satan, still learning, eating from the tree of good and evil, still experiencing death, loss, sorrow and suffering.

But for most of us, I think that the seed of faith has been planted and I know that once planted this seed will come to full maturity.

And so for us we can say that though we may not yet have been born of Spirit, not yet governed by our Higher Self, we are born of Christ, the Christ seed being planted in us.

Blessings abundant to you and yours my friend!

Sheryl

[_Roger Morrison]

Sheryl Wrote

Shalom my dear friend!

As I was reading your words, it came to mind that the church of Satan is the external Church, the Church of the Law, the Church of knowledge of good and evil, given for the evolution of our souls. The Church of God is the Ecclesia or called out ones, those no longer needing an external Church - thus they are called out - for they have been born of Spirit and are governed by the Spirit that lives within.

And I would say that most of us still reside in the Church of Satan, still learning, eating from the tree of good and evil, still experiencing death, loss, sorrow and suffering.

But for most of us, I think that the seed of faith has been planted and I know that once planted this seed will come to full maturity.

And so for us we can say that though we may not yet have been born of Spirit, not yet governed by our Higher Self, we are born of Christ, the Christ seed being planted in us.

Blessings abundant to you and yours my friend!

Sheryl

..........................................................................................................................................


Interesting thoughts. Where do they come from? The church of satan an external church?
Eating from the tree of good & evil?? Must be from Genesis?
My understanding is that humans are born spiritually pure, but with possible physical, mental & emotional deficiencies that have absolutely nothing to do with satan nor good nor evil!
YIKES!!! Are there many folks who think as you do??

Kind regards, Roger

[_sheryl]

[

Interesting thoughts. Where do they come from? The church of satan an external church?
Eating from the tree of good & evil?? Must be from Genesis?
My understanding is that humans are born spiritually pure, but with possible physical, mental & emotional deficiencies that have absolutely nothing to do with satan nor good nor evil!
YIKES!!! Are there many folks who think as you do??

Kind regards, Roger

We probably have a lot of the same ideas. The only difference is that I was using the word 'Satan' in a more Biblically correct way.

Gosh Jesus called Peter Satan! And he supposedly is the foundation of the Church! If we think that Satan is some evil red dude carrying a pitch fork, then we are in a lot of trouble, don't you think!

Satan is all of creation that works in ignorance of God's Will. And that which works in ignorance of God's Will is not ruled by Christ within, and so needs the Law to tell it what to do and what not to do.

Perhaps this makes more sense now?

Sheryl

[_Franktalk]

Some of your God statements are not Mormon doctrine. What kind of a M are you?
Good luck in your choices. . .
Regards, Roger

You will have to point them out. I find many people who don't know doctrine who say the strangest things.

[_Roger Morrison]

Some of your God statements are not Mormon doctrine. What kind of a M are you?
Good luck in your choices. . .
Regards, Roger

You will have to point them out. I find many people who don't know doctrine who say the strangest things.

FRANK, with all due respect, I think you fall into the last category. . . Me too??? :-)
As for pointing out your statements I consider questionable. Please forgive me, i just don't have the time to dig through all of the above again. We are so far apart in our understanding of scripture that it doesn't matter what we think.
in my opinion, what matters most to me is that people still believe nonsense, such as original-sin, the fall, redemption, resurrection, an after life, and in Mormonism: temple ordinances.
Why that matters to me: I don't like to see folks being deluded and living life according to policies edicts and practices based on fabricated imaginations. . .
Enjoy the day, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

[

Interesting thoughts. Where do they come from? The church of satan an external church?
Eating from the tree of good & evil?? Must be from Genesis?
My understanding is that humans are born spiritually pure, but with possible physical, mental & emotional deficiencies that have absolutely nothing to do with satan nor good nor evil!
YIKES!!! Are there many folks who think as you do??

Kind regards, Roger

Sheryl said:

We probably have a lot of the same ideas. The only difference is that I was using the word 'Satan' in a more Biblically correct way.

Gosh Jesus called Peter Satan! And he supposedly is the foundation of the Church! If we think that Satan is some evil red dude carrying a pitch fork, then we are in a lot of trouble, don't you think!

Satan is all of creation that works in ignorance of God's Will. And that which works in ignorance of God's Will is not ruled by Christ within, and so needs the Law to tell it what to do and what not to do.

Perhaps this makes more sense now?

Sheryl

Yeah, you sound more reasonable here :-)

My take on some of this biblical stuff: Ancient / primitive / limited understanding. Their words suited them, but not me, or now. . . Of course they still find favor in some crowds. . .
I don't think the, "... God of our fathers, in whose almighty hands..." exists :-0!! Nor does Satan with or without horns, tail, or pitchfork ;-)

There are countless natural laws upon which the universe and its folks live. Some laws we consciously utilize or violate, others???? When we're smart and do the right things, that's living "Righteously" (nothing to do with religion!)

When we mistakenly, in ignorance, or stupidly do the wrong things, violating natural laws, we "sin" (nothing to do with religion!) Although many like to lay that lash upon folks who make mistakes. Not at all what Jesus exemplified... "GO, and don't make that mistake again!" "And you guys with the stones, ??????

Heaven & Hell concept has out lived what ever purpose or value it ever had. The world has always functioned according to cause and effect. The smarter humans become, the better it will work as we fine tune the multitude of sciences that we become aware of and utilize.

The one greatest in need of adaptation is the most ancient and least understood of all:
"Love your neighbor!"

Whether religious type believers understand that Jesus has no need to come again. His message was delivered once. The ball is now, and has ever been, in our hands. Unfortunately, we like playing Monopoly & War Games rather than Peace & Love...
Wadayas think, eh???
Roger