MONSON STORY

[_ldsfaqs]

Moksha,
THANKS FOR THE QUESTION.

The first vision, in the Sacred Grove did not happen as it is stated in its several ways.

Yes it did.... My telling only "parts" of an event in my history and generalizing parts of it also and others and myself writing such down for viewing later doesn't mean the event didn't happen exactly like I state (per memory) when I do the full history telling of the event.

Historical analysis has clearly shown that most people knew the full story well before Joseph wrote it down, (not a single soul bothered by it being different in that time, even anti-mormons), and has also shown that Joseph told what he thought his particular audience could withstand according to line upon line precept upon precept.

Further NONE of the versions actually contradict each other. Each one simply has more or less detail than another. For actual fraud there must be actual contradictions. See the article, first vision a harmony or whatever it's called, Google it.

There was no visitation of Peter, James and John restoring the Melchezedic Priesthood.

There is testimony and witnesses. Them failing to record the exact date, or the paper getting lost that had it, is not the same as it actually happening. There are FIRST HAND accounts of the event. Can't get more reliable than that. Not only that, but first hand accounts from some who even left the Church and were enemy's of Joseph. If the event didn't happen, they wouldn't have come back into full fellowship.

The Book of Mormon has no validity. Divine or otherwise.

It has plenty of both. You being ignorant is not the same as an absence of validity. Plenty of us out there HAVE verified it, in all respects, religious, historically, scientifically, etc.

Therefore all that was built on the false premises suggested above can be nothing but from human minds. As is the case with all else be they wonders-of-the world, master pieces of art, world changing technology, or children's play. . .
The human mind is very fertile ground. Some minds being more imaginative & creative than others. Joseph Smith having had a quite exceptional mind. But not one more in tune with Deity than others. Today's psychology labs can tell us more about him and his successors than many would like to know.

From its well conceived, disingenuous beginning, LDSism laid TEMPLEISM, with all of its adjuncts on the minds of their believers, as essentials to salvation / exaltation. A very heavy burden to bear for what a loving and gracious God promised to all of his children. (According to the Judaic-Christian story.)

That Mormonism is not as it declares -- the only True, God Sanctioned Church, it does have some good attributes:
Well organized, community conscious and responsive. And family oriented to their interpretation of "family" whose quality is more dependent on wise parenting than on prescribed Family-Home-Evenings lessons in the hands of authoritarian parents.

I'm sure much more can be said but I'll leave that for others. Any readers in attendance at that long ago historical meeting in Toronto??
Enjoy the day! Roger

Blah blah blah.... all ignorant Atheist gobbledygook..... containing no facts.

As a former atheist myself who left the Church and was anti-religion/Mormon, you are ignorant.
It's as simple as that.

[_Roger Morrison]

Dear LDSFAQS;
Thanks for your comments. The first few seemed reasonable and easy to appreciate your sentiments.

However as you got closer to the "blah, blahs" your impatience and bitterness became quite apparent. Understandably so, as you gave a bit of your bio. . .

"Ignorant"?? No doubt that I have knowledge voids. Don't we all ;-)??? However, I am fairly adept at researching what I want to. And usually make pretty good decisions that materialize into something of value, to my satisfaction anyway. . .

"Atheist"????? I don't like that word. It generally infers: 'AGAINST God'. Which I am not. I simply submit that belief in the biblical God is an ancient tradition/custom that serves the present no better than it did the past.
Humans direct human affairs! "God" :-) looks after the universe stuff
When we want human stuff improved we do it! When we get a convenient parking spot, the Lord had nothing to do with it!!!! YIKES!!!

Enjoy the day! Roger

[_Tobin]

ldsfaqs,

I know this thread is going to get some TLC from the moderators soon, but I thought I'd let you know that I share a similar background. I left Mormonism, moved far away from my family and friends and made a new life because I wanted nothing to do with it. I was both an atheist and ex-mormon. I wasn't anti-mormon. I just thought it was so much hooey and it wasn't worth my time.

Now, I do understand your frustration in speaking with those that do not look kindly on Mormonism, particularly in this forum. They most definitely have an axe to grind. But I really don't think pointing that out strengthens your position at all. It is already plainly obvious.

I would suggest that you instead take a step back from the forums and do something else for a while. Read a good book. Watch a movie. Go for a run. I'm sure the forum will still be here when you get back and that will give you an opportunity to vent in a constructive manner. Name calling isn't going to win you any arguments I'm afraid and it just makes you appear mean.

[_Themis]

ldsfaqs,

I know this thread is going to get some TLC from the moderators soon, but I thought I'd let you know that I share a similar background. I left Mormonism, moved far away from my family and friends and made a new life because I wanted nothing to do with it. I was both an atheist and ex-mormon. I wasn't anti-mormon. I just thought it was so much hooey and it wasn't worth my time.

Now, I do understand your frustration in speaking with those that do not look kindly on Mormonism, particularly in this forum. They most definitely have an axe to grind. But I really don't think pointing that out strengthens your position at all. It is already plainly obvious.

I would suggest that you instead take a step back from the forums and do something else for a while. Read a good book. Watch a movie. Go for a run. I'm sure the forum will still be here when you get back and that will give you an opportunity to vent in a constructive manner. Name calling isn't going to win you any arguments I'm afraid and it just makes you appear mean.

He has always acted like this. He is the one with an axe to grind. I get attacked for just bringing up why I think certain LDS truth claims are not accurate. Claims that the church is trying to get others to believe. I don't hate the church, and see good in it, and hope that it will over time dispense of that which is clearly not true. I know unfortunately for us all that it will probably happen slowly and not get to the best place in our life times.

[_Roger Morrison]

TOBIN,
Really good advice to LDSFAQS!! I hope he takes it. . .


THEMIS,
Good post! We have a lot in common. Personally I think LDSism has sufficient good-stuff & will eventually have in place the proper leadership, to direct the good-stuff to be in line with Jesus' wisdom teaching.
One can only imagine how our world will change to the better when intelligence is not troubled by faith in the wrong concepts. Armageddon for example. . .
You are correct. Our/present generation won't see it happen. But another 500 or so years????
Enjoy the day,
Roger

[_gdemetz]

Good question; why do the anti's spend so much time here? One thing I noticed from my readings of some of the English translations of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" was the number of times it referred to the "children of light" and the "children of darkness." There are on one hand the "children of light" who who seem to easily discern, for example, "born of the water and spirit," and they can readily see-oh yes, that means baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost! While others, perhaps very educated, and some even ministers, live their whole lives, and can never seem to understand even this simple truth! Whereas, "the children of light" will usually progress, receive these ordinances, and through the gift of the Holy Ghost they even receive more light, while the others remain in darkness where it is easy for Satan to get them lifted up in pride and instigate them to attack Christ's church and the "children of light." The worst cases of the "children of darkness," however, are usually the ones that have received some light, and even the gift of the Holy Ghost, but then they sin against that light and the state of them is worse than those who would never have known and seen what they have seen. People should wake up and ask themselves why was this Church of Jesus Christ so persecuted, and this in a land which was set up by God as a land of liberty so his church could flourish! It was persecuted so much that even a governor issued an extermination order for Mormons! It was persecuted so much by bloodthirsty, Satan controlled, evil people that God had to lead it out west for the safety of the saints! People, don't keep walking in darkness; throw off that spirit which is constantly inspiring you to attack and open your eyes and follow the light!

[_Drifting]

Good question; why do the anti's spend so much time here? One thing I noticed from my readings of some of the English translations of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" was the number of times it referred to the "children of light" and the "children of darkness." There are on one hand the "children of light" who who seem to easily discern, for example, "born of the water and spirit," and they can readily see-oh yes, that means baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost! While others, perhaps very educated, and some even ministers, live their whole lives, and can never seem to understand even this simple truth! Whereas, "the children of light" will usually progress, receive these ordinances, and through the gift of the Holy Ghost they even receive more light, while the others remain in darkness where it is easy for Satan to get them lifted up in pride and instigate them to attack Christ's church and the "children of light." The worst cases of the "children of darkness," however, are usually the ones that have received some light, and even the gift of the Holy Ghost, but then they sin against that light and the state of them is worse than those who would never have known and seen what they have seen. People should wake up and ask themselves why was this Church of Jesus Christ so persecuted, and this in a land which was set up by God as a land of liberty so his church could flourish! It was persecuted so much that even a governor issued an extermination order for Mormons! It was persecuted so much by bloodthirsty, Satan controlled, evil people that God had to lead it out west for the safety of the saints! People, don't keep walking in darkness; throw off that spirit which is constantly inspiring you to attack and open your eyes and follow the light!

gd, it depends what you mean by anti's.
Does discussing things you don't understand anti-Mormon?
Does disbelieving some aspects of Mormonism make you anti-Mormon?
Does being appalled at some of the Church's whitewashing of its own history make you an anti?
Does disagreeing with the Church's official position make you anti?

[_hatersinmyward]

One things for sure, If Monson denounced his faith I'd get the heck out of Dodge (UTAH) Quick.

[_Themis]

Good question; why do the anti's spend so much time here? One thing I noticed from my readings of some of the English translations of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" was the number of times it referred to the "children of light" and the "children of darkness." There are on one hand the "children of light" who who seem to easily discern, for example, "born of the water and spirit," and they can readily see-oh yes, that means baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost! While others, perhaps very educated, and some even ministers, live their whole lives, and can never seem to understand even this simple truth! Whereas, "the children of light" will usually progress, receive these ordinances, and through the gift of the Holy Ghost they even receive more light, while the others remain in darkness where it is easy for Satan to get them lifted up in pride and instigate them to attack Christ's church and the "children of light." The worst cases of the "children of darkness," however, are usually the ones that have received some light, and even the gift of the Holy Ghost, but then they sin against that light and the state of them is worse than those who would never have known and seen what they have seen. People should wake up and ask themselves why was this Church of Jesus Christ so persecuted, and this in a land which was set up by God as a land of liberty so his church could flourish! It was persecuted so much that even a governor issued an extermination order for Mormons! It was persecuted so much by bloodthirsty, Satan controlled, evil people that God had to lead it out west for the safety of the saints! People, don't keep walking in darkness; throw off that spirit which is constantly inspiring you to attack and open your eyes and follow the light!

gd, it depends what you mean by anti's.
Does discussing things you don't understand anti-Mormon?
Does disbelieving some aspects of Mormonism make you anti-Mormon?
Does being appalled at some of the Church's whitewashing of its own history make you an anti?
Does disagreeing with the Church's official position make you anti?

From this person posts I think they are here only to preach a few sermons, and not get into real discussion with others. I see someone who thinks they already know all the LDS issues and have no interest in seeing if there are things they can learn. They ask a question in his/her long paragraph and then never even address it, but just ramble off a bunch of non-sense.

[_gdemetz]

No, I am here to engage in intelligent discussion, but I try to ignore baseless, venomous anti-Mormon comments with shallow supporting evidence.