The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_Drifting]

Faith (spirituality) is a pointless and selfish emotion unless and until it drives actions that are of positive benefit beyond the individual. The fact that you cannot identify any positive actions that you now take means your faith, your spirituality, is little more than an internal comfort blanket.

I am not so sure of that. I used to have thoughts about being a serial killer and taking out all those who use a "D" in their name on the internet. But of late I find I no longer have that urge. But who knows what will happen in the future. Maybe I will fall from faith like so many on these boards. If that happens maybe you can get some of that change in behavior you seek.

[_Franktalk]

Come now you know I am not serious. If I was I would not post it.

But what is the problem with a serial killer anyway. It is just natural selection at play is it not? If indeed we have these molecules that we need to propagate into future generations aren't we supposed to eliminate competition? Isn't this a form of the science you believe in? Did you not say:

"When it comes down to a choice science wins everytime."

Isn't it science that says that winning is having your genes go forward and having your neighbors genes stop? So how can this type of behavior be offensive? Are we not just animals?

[_Drifting]

Come now you know I am not serious. If I was I would not post it.

But what is the problem with a serial killer anyway. It is just natural selection at play is it not? If indeed we have these molecules that we need to propagate into future generations aren't we supposed to eliminate competition? Isn't this a form of the science you believe in? Did you not say:

"When it comes down to a choice science wins everytime."

Isn't it science that says that winning is having your genes go forward and having your neighbors genes stop? So how can this type of behavior be offensive? Are we not just animals?

Survival of the fittest is still the natural driving force, yes.
You see it at play in corporations and business every day - dog eat dog.
You see it at play with populations every day. Take the conflicts in the middle East. Each division of society wants to do better, progress more and have more than other divisions of society. The war in Iraq was not about developing Iraq, it was about protecting the long term interests of ones own population.

You even see this natural competitive element at play in Religion. Each one wants to have more members than their competitor religions, it's a drive to survive.

[_Franktalk]

Survival of the fittest is still the natural driving force, yes.
You see it at play in corporations and business every day - dog eat dog.
You see it at play with populations every day. Take the conflicts in the middle East. Each division of society wants to do better, progress more and have more than other divisions of society. The war in Iraq was not about developing Iraq, it was about protecting the long term interests of ones own population.

You even see this natural competitive element at play in Religion. Each one wants to have more members than their competitor religions, it's a drive to survive.

Of course you see it this way. You take from man his soul and choice and give it to some idea that all actions of man are from some natural spring of wants and desires that spring from natural selection. You take away the essence of man and replace it with some idea that is the brain child born of naturalist from the 18th century. When you follow that logic back far enough you become a determinist and then each of us are just puppets of some initial conditions of the universe. There is no purpose there is no personal responsibility of man. Just go off and party like crazy and enjoy the short time you have because when you take the dirt nap you cease to exist. This is all from the world and it serves its master. But I see things differently. I see the earth as a place for us to learn good from evil. You take that plan and deny the powers that set the stage. You give the stage the power over everything even our very souls. The Kingdom of God is for those who find themselves and progress in the plan. The Kingdom of God also has a place for those who wish to stay in the creation and wallow in it. We all make our choice. For those who leave the LDS church or any good Christian church they are making a choice for the world. They have weighed what they see as truth and the world looks like what they want. They deny the existence of the Kingdom of God saying all of the ideas of the plan are foolishness.

There are some who change from one church to another because of doctrine. These people never lost faith they just are seeking a church which fits their understanding of doctrine. Of the people who leave the LDS church where do they go?

[_Drifting]

Survival of the fittest is still the natural driving force, yes.
You see it at play in corporations and business every day - dog eat dog.
You see it at play with populations every day. Take the conflicts in the middle East. Each division of society wants to do better, progress more and have more than other divisions of society. The war in Iraq was not about developing Iraq, it was about protecting the long term interests of ones own population.

You even see this natural competitive element at play in Religion. Each one wants to have more members than their competitor religions, it's a drive to survive.

Of course you see it this way. You take from man his soul and choice and give it to some idea that all actions of man are from some natural spring of wants and desires that spring from natural selection.

Frank, can you name one thing that you have done that wasn't in your own personal best interest? (I'm not having a go at you, it's just I believe that All people always make decisions on what suits them, personally, the best).

[_Franktalk]

Frank, can you name one thing that you have done that wasn't in your own personal best interest? (I'm not having a go at you, it's just I believe that All people always make decisions on what suits them, personally, the best).

Having a chat with you is not in my personal best interest.

[_Drifting]

Frank, can you name one thing that you have done that wasn't in your own personal best interest? (I'm not having a go at you, it's just I believe that All people always make decisions on what suits them, personally, the best).

Having a chat with you is not in my personal best interest.

But when you think about that, it is.
Because, up to this point, it has suited you best to continue the dialogue. And when you or I choose to end the conversation, it will be because that choice suits us best at that point in time. It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.

[_Franktalk]

But when you think about that, it is.
Because, up to this point, it has suited you best to continue the dialogue. And when you or I choose to end the conversation, it will be because that choice suits us best at that point in time. It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.

Not at all. This existence is not all about me me me. No matter how much you think it is. The concept that the center of the universe is you is not correct. But it is the natural way to look at the universe if you are of the world. Where you think you are in charge of yourself you really have made only one choice. When you determined to follow the path of the world you set a course but the world gives you few options. What others say about how the world works you accept without any problems. I accept the plan of Salvation so I accept a path without question as well. We only can divert our self in small ways from day to day. We deal with what happens around us but we rarely determine anything. So we are both a product of our world view. In embracing the world you have by default accepted the lowest collection point of the Kingdom of God. In my case I have accepted the Kingdom of God so based on many things I can advance in spiritual matters while in the flesh. I can exist as a duel state. It makes this existence way more interesting and fulfilling. To suppress or deny the spirit is to chop off most of your existence. Your spirit exist whether you believe in it or not. The Kingdom of God exist whether you believe in it or not. Where you may believe that your brain is a product of millions of years of evolution I believe mine was designed for a purpose. Your acceptance of the natural brain is very limiting. You remain stuck inside your own world of physical senses. But what you fail in realizing is that the other reality is much more than this one.

[_Drifting]

But when you think about that, it is.
Because, up to this point, it has suited you best to continue the dialogue. And when you or I choose to end the conversation, it will be because that choice suits us best at that point in time. It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.

Not at all. This existence is not all about me me me. No matter how much you think it is. The concept that the center of the universe is you is not correct. But it is the natural way to look at the universe if you are of the world. Where you think you are in charge of yourself you really have made only one choice. When you determined to follow the path of the world you set a course but the world gives you few options. What others say about how the world works you accept without any problems. I accept the plan of Salvation so I accept a path without question as well. We only can divert our self in small ways from day to day. We deal with what happens around us but we rarely determine anything. So we are both a product of our world view. In embracing the world you have by default accepted the lowest collection point of the Kingdom of God. In my case I have accepted the Kingdom of God so based on many things I can advance in spiritual matters while in the flesh. I can exist as a duel state. It makes this existence way more interesting and fulfilling. To suppress or deny the spirit is to chop off most of your existence. Your spirit exist whether you believe in it or not. The Kingdom of God exist whether you believe in it or not. Where you may believe that your brain is a product of millions of years of evolution I believe mine was designed for a purpose. Your acceptance of the natural brain is very limiting. You remain stuck inside your own world of physical senses. But what you fail in realizing is that the other reality is much more than this one.

Good morning Frantalk, how are you today? Good I hope.

I understand your desire for there to be a spiritual element to your life and your existence; and I understand that it is important to you. Can you see though, that is your choice? It is what suits you best; your views, opinions, beliefs, morals etc. Nobody is forcing you to do something against your will, therfore it is your will rather than God's that drives your actions, your decisions, your choices. You are following God's path, as you see it, because that suits you personally the best. You are walking in the Spirit because that suits you personally the best.

It is inescapable.

I don't remain stuck in my physical senses. I choose to use my physical senses and believe what they tell me because that is what suits me best.
I don't lose most of my existence because I deny the spirit. In fact, discounting the spirit has led to a far more fulfilling existence for me and the people around me. But that is because that type of existence suits me personally the best.

It is inescapable that human kind makes decisions and choices based on what suits the individual personally the best.

[_Themis]

It's inescapable that 'man' is inherently a selfish creature.

In some ways yes, and in some ways no, at least not individually. How many animals have sacrificed themselves to save others. It is all geared around the survival of the fittest, but then our species needs the group for survival, so we must have many traits that help with that survival. A serial killer would not help the group or the individuals survival, but groups can and do kill, attack or control other groups to make their survival better. Even the Bible shows certain groups killing other groups to take land, which is a common one for groups to do to increase their survival chances. In the Bible they blame their actions on God, saying he made us do it. :) You can see it with European colonization, even in the native Indians all across the Americas.