UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

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_Buffalo
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Buffalo »

subgenius wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Subgenius, you might as well admit you know nothing about the law. You're in over your head.

ahhh...the last cry from the defeated, as they realize it but are not yet able to admit it.

I already served Darth J a humble sandwich when he tried to put up his "name one state" argument...as if that was something of debate substance....then having an appetite for more he conveniently steps away from that one (for fear of more getting on his face).

and then you...the standard bearer of all things inadequate, have you decided on how i would "prove" my previous claim about what i have read or not read?
likely not, because once again we read posts that have you firmly entrenched as the head cheerleader, a player never to be.

as for "knowledge" of the law..i am pretty sure that none of us are overwhelmed with offers to argue this case before any court....least of all some internet nazi grammar guy who thinks he is a star wars antagonist.



You're too incompetent to realize how incompetent you are. I hate to use an internet cliché, but your posts really are a classic example of the Dunning–Kruger effect in action. Good luck with that.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Daniel2
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Daniel2 »

subgenius wrote:
Morley wrote:subgenius: You’re referring to the meta-analysis on the NARTH website. NARTH may not be the most objective resource.

because it does not support your preconceived notions on the subject?, duly noted.


The ApA article Lesbian & Gay Parenting - Children of Lesbian & Gay Parents, By Charlotte J. Patterson, PhD is no less biased than NARTH... Closer inspection of the references confirms my earlier, and current assertions.

The following article regarding NARTH was just released by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

NARTH Becomes Main Source for Anti-Gay ‘Junk Science’.

PHOENIX — Michael Brown took the dais in a sterile Marriott ballroom last fall, beaming for the 40 or so therapists who form the devout core of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). With a hulking frame packed tightly into a three-button black suit, one of the nation’s most vociferous anti-gay activists began his speech with a dire warning.

The “homosexual agenda” is on the march, he said, and shows no signs of slowing. Gay rights activists, aggressively working to undermine Christian values and the traditional family, have infiltrated the nation’s schools, civic centers and places of worship. The war for the heart of the country is on.

“We need you. I need you,” pleaded the guest speaker, author of the 2011 self-published book A Queer Thing Happened to America. Brown added, “You may be condemned today, but you will be commended tomorrow.”

The urgency was not lost on the therapists in the room, an embattled group that finds itself struggling against a powerful tide of public opinion and accusations that it has produced faulty research to support an anti-gay agenda.

Billing itself as the counterweight to the two most prominent mental health authorities — the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association — NARTH pushes the idea, with the zeal of a religious movement, that no one is born gay and that a person’s sexual orientation can be changed through what is known as “reparative” or “conversion” therapy, also commonly called “ex-gay” therapy. At the heart of this argument is the belief that homosexuality is an unnatural deviation from normal sexual development, a form of mental disorder.

With these views, NARTH has emerged as the preeminent source of what many regard as “junk science” for the religious right — psychology that underpins the anti-gay movement’s fervent opposition to equal rights and stigmatizes LGBT people as mentally sick.

Without the research NARTH provides, there are few avenues remaining for the religious right to condemn homosexuality, at a time when the American public is growing more accepting of LGBT people and more open to extending equal rights to same-sex couples. “There’s no other play in the playbook except going back to the fire and brimstone,” argues Wayne Besen, executive director of Truth Wins Out, one of several watchdog groups monitoring the reparative therapy industry.

"We can no longer rely on - almost all pro-family organizations do today - on gleaning scientific 'bits' from those in liberal academia. We must subvert the academy by doing original, honest research ourselves." -Paul Cameron, Family Research Institute

But even as NARTH is held up as an authority on the science of homosexuality by both fringe groups and politically potent national organizations like the Family Research Council, its claim that LGBT people can be “cured” of their homosexuality is not backed by the evidence.

In fact, every major American medical authority has concluded that there is no scientific support for NARTH’s view, and many have expressed concern that reparative therapy can cause harm. Most strikingly, in 2006, the American Psychological Association (APA) stated: “There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.” The APA added, “Our further concern is that the positions espoused by NARTH and Focus on the Family create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.”

And flourish it has.

The LGBT community is overwhelmingly the group most targeted in violent hate crimes, according to an Intelligence Report analysis of 14 years of federal hate crime data. Gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people are more than twice as likely to be attacked in a violent hate crime as Jews or blacks; more than four times as likely as Muslims; and 14 times as likely as Latinos.

Despite this hate-inspired violence, anti-gay groups continue to employ virulent rhetoric that demonizes gay men and lesbians, some of it based on NARTH’s research. This strategy of using science, however flawed, to fortify their religious condemnation of homosexuality was articulated five years ago by the Family Research Institute’s Paul Cameron, a psychologist whose research has been thoroughly discredited by mainstream scientists.

“We can no longer rely — as almost all pro-family organizations do today — on gleaning scientific ‘bits’ from those in liberal academia. ... [W]e must subvert the academy by doing original, honest research ourselves,” Cameron wrote.

Original, maybe. But honest? NARTH’s many critics argue otherwise.

"Homosexuality is a psychological and psychiatric disorder, there is no question about it. It is a purple menace that is threatening the proper design of gender distinctions and society." -Charles Socarides, NARTH co-founder
The ‘Purple Menace’

Like many anti-gay activists, NARTH claims that homosexuality is caused by psychological trauma or some other aberration in childhood. Its founding was rooted in a nearly 40-year-old schism that rocked the psychiatric community.

In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the compendium of known mental disorders. Not all therapists agreed with the decision. Among them were Charles Socarides, Joseph Nicolosi and Benjamin Kaufman, who formed NARTH in 1992 to confront the growing acceptance of homosexuality.

These dissidents believed that the official recognition of homosexuality as a natural variant in human development was a travesty and most certainly the product of an insidious plot now widely derided as the “homosexual agenda.” As Kaufman wrote in an essay published at the time, the mission of their brave new collective was to “understand the homosexual condition and the factors which drive this self-destructive behavior.” NARTH was a strategic answer to a division that pitted socially conservative therapists against their progressive counterparts.

Socarides, a psychoanalyst and the most famous of NARTH’s founders, had gained prominence in the 1960s for his view that homosexuality was a treatable mental illness. “Socarides offered the closest thing to hope that many homosexuals had in the 1960s: the prospect of a cure,” The New York Times wrote three years after NARTH was formed.

"Traditionalists wince at the mental images conjured up by the thought of what homosexuals do in the act of intercourse. Almost feeling guilty about their visceral reaction, they still cannot help but see such acts as perverse and, in fact, unnatural." -Joseph Nicolosi, Co-author of A Parent's Guide to Preventing Homosexuality

In his book Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far, Socarides explained that same-sex attraction was a “neurotic adaptation” that could be traced to “smothering mothers and abdicating fathers.” Not only did he believe that LGBT people could be cured, he thought they should be cured.

When speaking to The Washington Post in 1997, he offered a startlingly grim forecast of what he feared acceptance of gays and lesbians would bring. “Homosexuality is a psychological and psychiatric disorder, there is no question about it,” Socarides claimed. “It is a purple menace that is threatening the proper design of gender distinctions and society.”

While Socarides, NARTH’s first president, died of cardiac arrest in 2005, his sentiments continue to guide the group. Nicolosi, who became president, shared his predecessor’s views, seeing his work in the vein of psychotherapists such as Sigmund Freud, whose work dealt with sexual paraphilias (commonly thought of as perversions). A devout Catholic and endlessly confrontational, Nicolosi was once a spokesman for Focus on the Family, a powerhouse of the anti-gay religious right, and has been a tireless critic of conventional psychiatric thought for most of his career.

In 2009, he asserted that “if you traumatize a child in a particular way, you will create a homosexual condition.” He also has repeatedly said, “Fathers, if you don’t hug your sons, some other man will.” But his loathing for “the homosexual condition” goes even deeper. In his book A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality, which he wrote with his wife in 2002, Nicolosi offered a perspective on homosexuality that seemed to position NARTH closer to the anti-gay activists of the religious right.

“Traditionalists wince at the mental images conjured up by the thought of what homosexuals do in the act of intercourse,” he wrote. “Almost feeling guilty about their visceral reaction, they still cannot help but see such acts as perverse and, in fact, unnatural.”

When the book was published, there was no need for Nicolosi to court the “traditionalists” who opposed homosexuality. Many had already come calling.

Controversial Supporters

Though some anti-gay groups have moderated their positions on homosexuality, and a number of reparative therapists have recanted their beliefs, NARTH remains a bastion of hard-core activists who have dug in even as they are being politically marginalized.

“We live in a climate where it is only politically correct to share misinformation about this topic,” said Julie Hamilton, a former president of NARTH, at the group’s annual conference last November in Phoenix. “We as an organization are swimming against the stream.”

True to form, the people speaking at that conference were not therapists promising revelations about human sexuality, but rather prominent culture warriors of the religious right, like Brown.

Sharon Slater, whose Family Watch International argues that homosexuality is an “assault on marriage, the family, and family related issues” was one of them. In one of the policy briefs on her group’s website, Slater argued that “homosexuality is relatively rare” and, what’s more, treatable. Like many of her fellow anti-gay leaders, Slater has ties to activists in Uganda who are lobbying for the so-called “Kill the Gays” bill, but she made no mention of that in Phoenix as she catalogued a global effort to undermine family values through United Nations-sanctioned “comprehensive sexual education” programs. The UN, she argued, is seeking to indoctrinate children into the “gay lifestyle.” In Slater’s assessment, fighting homosexuality is “the battle of our time.”

These are not new associations for NARTH. Since its founding, the group has aligned its mission with some of the most venomous purveyors of anti-gay propaganda.

In 1995, for example, NARTH featured Scott Lively, co-author of The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party, at its annual conference. Lively’s book argues that the Nazi Party recruited gay men because of their inherent savagery and that gay men largely orchestrated the Holocaust — a claim roundly rejected by all reputable historians. NARTH has also promoted the work of Paul Cameron, who remains director of the Family Research Institute despite being ejected from the American Psychological Association and the American Sociological Association (ASA). The ASA declared, “Dr. Cameron has consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented sociological research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism.”

One NARTH critic, a former member, says these associations are the results of work that has been patterned to conform to an ideology.

"We live in a climate where it is only politically correct to share misinformation about this topic. We as an organization are swimming against the stream." -Julie Hamilton, Former president of NARTH

“When it comes to science, you can’t let your religious views color what is. And I think NARTH does that all the time,” said Warren Throckmorton, a psychology professor at a Christian college and past president of the American Mental Health Counselors Association who has counseled clients conflicted about their sexual identity for years. NARTH’s constituents, he added, are usually “the right-wing groups who feel they needed that information to offset gay rights initiatives.”

In recent years, NARTH has suffered several embarrassing episodes, caused not by its alliances but by its own members.

In 2007, Nicolosi came under fire after an essay seeming to justify slavery appeared on NARTH’s website. In the piece, “Gay Rights and Political Correctness: A Brief History,” Dr. Gerald Schoenewolf, a New York psychotherapist and member of the group’s science advisory committee, wrote, “Africa at the time of slavery was still primarily a jungle. ... Life there was savage ... and those brought to America, and other countries, were in many ways better off.” (Nicolosi stepped down as NARTH president after criticism mounted, but he remains instrumental in the group.)

Then, in 2010, George Rekers, a psychologist and also a scientific adviser to NARTH, was photographed at Miami International Airport with a 20-year-old male prostitute who had accompanied him on a 10-day European vacation. Rekers insisted he had hired the man, who advertised his services on Rentboy.com, merely to carry his luggage. The man disagreed. He told reporters he had given Rekers daily nude massages that included genital contact.

While such very public controversies would normally tarnish an organization, NARTH has proven lastingly resilient. “They are still a force to be reckoned with,” said Besen of Truth Wins Out.

The Defiant Future

One of those attending NARTH’s conference last fall was Peter Sprigg, senior fellow for policy studies for the Family Research Council (FRC), a politically prominent anti-gay group that has made numerous false claims denigrating the LGBT community. Sprigg has encouraged deporting LGBT people and recriminalizing homosexuality. During a question-and-answer session at the conference, Sprigg asked a question that offered a revealing look at the state of the anti-gay movement and the future of reparative therapy.

The FRC was one of 13 anti-gay organizations listed as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center in 2010, a move that prompted the group to quietly implement a campaign to soften its image. The hate group listing was Sprigg’s concern.

“I wonder if you have any advice to countering a charge of hate,” Sprigg asked Brown, who had been encouraging the people in the room to be courageous in their opposition to homosexuality. “[Hate] is the label that is always thrown at it, and I’m realizing that it begins to take effect.” Brown could only encourage Sprigg to be compassionate.

Several weeks later, the FRC released a policy paper called “Debating Homosexuality: Understanding Two Views.” In the paper, Sprigg relied heavily on NARTH’s research to argue that homosexuality is “objectively harmful” to people and communities. In the same paper, he offered an olive branch to gay men and lesbians: reparative therapy.

Even though activists like Sprigg continue to tout reparative therapy and cite NARTH, it seems clear the group is quickly approaching a crossroads.

Not only is NARTH being condemned by LGBT rights activists, its insistence that gay men and lesbians can be “cured” is increasingly being criticized by practitioners who have abandoned reparative therapy.

John Smid, the former executive director of the Tennessee-based Love in Action (LiA), an ex-gay Christian ministry, recently castigated reparative therapists for peddling a false philosophy that condemns homosexuality on moral terms. On his personal blog he wrote, “I have still yet to hear one man [after therapy] say I am completely heterosexual, and I am no longer having any sexual attractions to men.”

Meanwhile, one major player in the industry appears to be in serious financial trouble. Ex-Gay Watch, which investigates reparative therapy, has reported that Exodus International, one of the largest practitioners of reparative therapy, was nearing financial ruin in November and in dire need of a new message — something softer, something more tolerant.

But NARTH, for now, doesn’t seem interested in softening its stance. With a new generation of reparative therapists and anti-gay activists continuing to take up the cause, more groups have turned to NARTH.

As Nicolosi proudly claimed in a 2010 video touting the benefits of reparative therapy: “The strategy of the gay activists, the strategy of gay psychiatrists within the American Psychiatric Association, was to ignore us. We can’t be ignored.”

Maybe Nicolosi hasn’t noticed, but LGBT rights activists are no longer ignoring NARTH. Rather, they’re seeing it as roadblock to be swept aside in their march toward equality.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/i ... er-science
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
_Darth J
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Darth J »

subgenius wrote:
Darth J wrote:1. Baker was decided.......

i appreciate how you completely sidestep your previous assertion in the face of an answer being given to a question you obviously thought would yield no answer.
You asked for a state that used Skinner, and you were given it....and you avoid the simple courtesy of a touche'.
Now, as you change canoes in mid-stream, you seem to have left your paddle behind.


No, I did not ask for "a state that used Skinner." I asked for case law interpreting Skinner as the U.S. Supreme Court substantively defining as a matter of law what marriage is. The latter is what you keep asserting.

2. Baker cited Skinner in the same breath that it cited Genesis. The Book of Genesis is not law. Regarding the definition of marriage under Minnesota state law, Skinner is not law, either.

no one ever said it was the law. You asked and you were answered. Skinner is not law, but it was used, as you so blatantly were unaware of, to support a decision that upheld a "law"...that is to say a constitutional amendment.


You have been repeatedly saying that Skinner v. Oklahoma defines the legal meaning of marriage. Nobody but you thinks this.

3. If Skinner really means what you keep saying it means, and the U.S. Supreme Court really did define marriage as being for the purpose of procreation

you tout yourself as some sort of legal eagle (again) but you fail to understand the most simple concepts. the Supreme Court did not define marriage's purpose, nor do i claim they did. They simply inextricably linked marriage and procreation in terms of human survival....perhaps you should actually read the Skinner decision.


Then you don't understand your own argument. Nobody is claiming that children are not produced by married couples. The fact is that in no jurisdiction anywhere in the United States is having children a requirement of marriage. There is nothing about the legal parameters of marriage that requires opposite-sex partners.

...there is a substantive due process right to same-sex marriage

there is no evidence to support this argument...there is more cause for the opposite.


You are taking what I said out of context. What I said was that if what you endlessly assert about Skinner v. Oklahoma is true, then the U.S. Supreme Court, allegedly having the authority to substantively define what marriage is, could just as well define marriage as between people of the same sex. And you're still showing that you don't know what you're talking about. The argument doesn't need "support" in the way you are implying. In a substantive due process analysis, the government has the burden of showing a compelling state interest as to why a suspect class should be discriminated against, or why a fundamental right should be curtailed. Since no state requires married people to have children, your "think of the children!" histrionics are irrelevant.

No, because I have never argued a basis for same-sex marriage being recognized that requires homosexuality to be treated as a suspect classification...

you could have stopped at "i have never argued..."
if you insist on moving goalposts and revisionist framing of your argument then good luck to you.
You have invoked the 14th on this cause and you have no basis for it.
Even the most cursory review of your assertion concludes that on one hand you are arguing the substantive perspective with due process. However, that tack can go 2 different routes...it involves one of fundamental rights or one of non-fundamental rights...and between these two you seem to go back and forth. Its a clever ploy, but playing the substantive due process game is rather cliché at this point and fails to carry with it anything more than impressing a coffee-shop crowd.
Besides you are showing your indequacy by trying to argue a matter of constitutional equal protection or due process without the rational basis review. Your Substantive arguments do not apply to the matter at hand.


The reason you think the goalposts are being moved is that you don't understand what the goalposts are. Go ahead and find any post I have ever made on this group about same-sex marriage where I have argued that homosexuality is a suspect classification or that there is a fundamental substantive due process right to same-sex marriage.

If marriage is about having children, then neither childless marriages nor same-sex marriages should get any tax benefits.

you try to make the exception the rule (again). The benefit is a means of encouragement, then when coupled with the benefit for actually having children one receives the maximum - thus encouraging the attainment of both conditions.


There is no "exception to the rule," because the rule you are asserting does not exist. There is no rule that married people have to have children. You are not arguing about law; you are arguing about your cherished beliefs. Law is about rules for everyone. That is why, for example, the Constitution forbids bills of attainder. The reason the 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection of law to citizens of the states is to avoid arbitrary "exceptions to the rule."

Your ad hoc assertion about martial tax benefits is not law, either. A married couple with no children gets tax benefits. An unmarried person claiming a dependent child gets tax benefits, too. The supposed "encouragement" allowed by the possibility of getting both marital and child support tax benefits does not equate to a legal requirement for married people to have children.

Using your reasoning, a person can get even more tax benefits by being married, having a child, and contributing to a religious organization. Therefore, organized religion is part of marriage.

...there is no reason for their marriages to be legally recognized.

now i see why your arguments avoid the "rational basis"...because there is no rationality well from which you may drink. In the wake of being served the Baker response you have chosen the lower road and your subsequent arguments flail around in desperation with mouths gaping open for a hook upon which they may be pulled into the boat of common sense.....too bad.


If, per Baker, marriage is about children, then why should the childless geriatric second marriages of certain LDS apostles be recognized in Minnesota?
_Darth J
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Darth J »

subgenius wrote: as for "knowledge" of the law..i am pretty sure that none of us are overwhelmed with offers to argue this case before any court....least of all some internet nazi grammar guy who thinks he is a star wars antagonist.


That's right. I think we've pretty well established that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and what I have said about equal protection and same-sex marriage is laughably ridiculous.

By the way, here's the 9th Circuit's opinion in Perry v. Brown, where they confirmed that what I've been saying on this board for over a year is ludicrous by holding that there is no equal protection application to same-sex marriage under state law. (That is what they said, isn't it?) http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/g ... 696com.pdf

There can be no doubt, however, that substantive word choice is "grammar," and therefore anyone who says that what you say in substance is wrong is himself merely a "grammar Nazi." For example:

Person A: "Bob doesn't like to spend money. He is very niggardly."
Person B: "You're a racist!"

We can see that Person B is merely making an error in grammar, and not in fact ignorant of what the word "niggardly" means.

In any event, Subgenius has made a compelling case that I do indeed think that I really am a Star Wars character because of my screen name and avatar. Similarly, I think we can all infer that Buffalo believes that he really is a buffalo head nickel, and that Dr. Shades really believes himself to be a female Japanese celebrity named after a pair of sunglasses.
_subgenius
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »

Darth J wrote:No, I did not ask for "a state that used Skinner." I asked for case law interpreting Skinner as the U.S. Supreme Court substantively defining as a matter of law what marriage is. The latter is what you keep asserting.

and you were given Baker....and subsequently you tucked tail and changed the argument.

You have been repeatedly saying that Skinner v. Oklahoma defines the legal meaning of marriage. Nobody but you thinks this.

i have not been saying this, i have just been saying there is "support" for a particular legal and cultural definition of marriage. Never that such a legal definition actually existed.

There is nothing about the legal parameters of marriage that requires opposite-sex partners.

.....except the legal parameters in the following states:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, S Carolina, S Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
http://www.clgs.org/marriage/state-definitions

The reason you think the goalposts are being moved is ...

example:
a suspect classification is any classification of groups meeting a series of criteria suggesting they are likely the subject of discrimination
Darth J wrote:That is not the issue. The issue is whether there is a rational basis for discriminating against same-sex couples...

VS
Darth J wrote:No, because I have never argued a basis for same-sex marriage being recognized that requires homosexuality to be treated as a suspect classification.

emphasis mine.....misstep yours

There is not a single judge or lawyer in the United States who thinks that this single underlined sentence, in context, means that having children is part of the legal definition of marriage:

except as blatantly referenced in the baker decision and implied by the countless State Constitutions and laws noted above.
I appreciate you distinguishing here that procreation is "part" of marriage, or as i stated earlier, linked to marriage in a fundamental manner. The idea that it is a "requirement" of marriage i have yet to argue.
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_ludwigm
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _ludwigm »

After mutual law teaching, back to the OP...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... nment.html
Christians have no right to wear cross at work, says Government
...
A document seen by The Sunday Telegraph discloses that ministers will argue that because it is not a “requirement” of the Christian faith, employers can ban the wearing of the cross and sack workers who insist on doing so.
...
The Government’s refusal to say that Christians have a right to display the symbol of their faith at work emerged after its plans to legalise same-sex marriages were attacked by the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Britain.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Drifting
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Drifting »

Thanks Ludwig, for a moment there I was having an LA Law flashback involving Corben Bernstein and shoulder pads *shudders*....

Anyhow, I think the Government here in the UK is going down the path of non discrimination and that means religious differences will be targeted.
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_Darth J
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Darth J »

subgenius wrote:
Darth J wrote:No, I did not ask for "a state that used Skinner." I asked for case law interpreting Skinner as the U.S. Supreme Court substantively defining as a matter of law what marriage is. The latter is what you keep asserting.

and you were given Baker....and subsequently you tucked tail and changed the argument.


No, I haven't. The fact that you think this only shows that you hopelessly misunderstand what the issue is. You have consistently, and mistakenly, talked about Skinner v. Oklahoma as if it stands for the proposition that the legal purpose of marriage is to have and raise children. In real-life, positive law, children are not relevant to defining what a marriage is. Paternity, custody, and child support can all be decided with or without a marriage. With DNA testing, Lord Mansfield's rule doesn't mean anything anymore.

When the Skinner court said "marriage and procreation" are necessary for the survival of the race, you are mistakenly reading that as saying that one is a condition to the other. Eisenstadt v. Baird held that unmarried people have an equal protection entitlement to the same right to privacy in reproductive choices that married people have. That does not mean that unmarried people are a suspect or quasi-suspect classification. It means that there is no rational basis for treating them differently.

You have been repeatedly saying that Skinner v. Oklahoma defines the legal meaning of marriage. Nobody but you thinks this.

i have not been saying this, i have just been saying there is "support" for a particular legal and cultural definition of marriage. Never that such a legal definition actually existed.


If the legal definition does not actually exist, then the legal "support" (your own scare quotes) does not actually exist.

There is nothing about the legal parameters of marriage that requires opposite-sex partners.

.....except the legal parameters in the following states:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, S Carolina, S Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
http://www.clgs.org/marriage/state-definitions


None of those states require married couples to have reproductive sex that produces children. A circular definition ("marriage is between a man and a woman because that's what marriage is") is not a rational basis.

Tell me one specific right or duty of a marriage any of those states that requires opposite-sex partners in order for that right or duty to be carried out.

The reason you think the goalposts are being moved is ...

example:
a suspect classification is any classification of groups meeting a series of criteria suggesting they are likely the subject of discrimination


And I have never argued that homosexuals are within those criteria that would create a suspect classification.

"Darth J" = That is not the issue. The issue is whether there is a rational basis for discriminating against same-sex couples...
VS
"Darth J" No, because I have never argued a basis for same-sex marriage being recognized that requires homosexuality to be treated as a suspect classification.

emphasis mine.....misstep yours


You have not shown a contradiction. Saying that a group is discriminated against does not equate to an assertion that the group deserves to be a suspect classification. If I were claiming that homosexuals were a suspect classification, I would not have said "rational basis." Rational basis is not the standard of review for suspect classifications. The only reason you think this is a misstep is because you don't know what you are talking about.

There is not a single judge or lawyer in the United States who thinks that this single underlined sentence, in context, means that having children is part of the legal definition of marriage:

except as blatantly referenced in the baker decision and implied by the countless State Constitutions and laws noted above.


Unfortunately, the Minnesota Court of Appeals has not interpreted Baker to mean what you want it to mean. In January this year, the Minnesota appellate court reversed the dismissal of a lawsuit seeking to have the prohibition on same-sex marriage in Minnesota declared unconstitutional on equal protection grounds (under the equal protection clause of the Minnesota state constitution). The court of appeals reached exactly the opposite conclusion that you keep insisting on.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/sta ... 00878.html (my underline)

District Judge Mary DuFresne dismissed the lawsuit last March, rejecting the couples' claims on the basis of Baker vs. Nelson, a 1971 Minnesota Supreme Court decision that said limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples does not violate the U.S. Constitution.

In the 15-page decision released on Monday that partly approved and partly reversed the trial court decision, the Court of Appeals ruled that DuFresne improperly relied on the Baker case. Since Baker, Judge Renee Worke wrote, the U.S. Supreme Court has indicated that "moral disapproval of a class because of sexual orientation cannot be a legitimate government purpose that equal protection requires."

The couples should be granted a chance in District Court to prove that their rights were violated, she concluded.

"Even if the right to marry is not considered a fundamental right, appellants should have been granted an opportunity to show that MN DOMA is not a reasonable means to its stated objective -- to promote opposite-sex marriages to encourage procreation," Worke wrote.


Here is the Minnesota Court of Appeals opinion: http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archi ... 012312.pdf

From that opinion, with my underline:

Appellants claim that the government cannot deprive them of their fundamental right to marry without showing that this denial is narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest. But even if the right to marry is not considered a fundamental right, appellants should have been granted an opportunity to show that MN DOMA is not a reasonable means to its stated objective—to promote opposite-sex marriages to encourage procreation. The district court failed to conduct an appropriate analysis under the Minnesota Constitution; therefore, appellants’ due-process claim on a rule-12 motion was improperly dismissed.

The reason why, contra everything you keep saying, the dismissal was reversed is because Baker doesn't mean what you think it means.

I appreciate you distinguishing here that procreation is "part" of marriage, or as i stated earlier, linked to marriage in a fundamental manner. The idea that it is a "requirement" of marriage i have yet to argue.


It is not implied in countless state constitutions, nor in any state constitutions, nor in any state statutes, that procreation is linked to marriage in a fundamental manner. If it were, then marriages that did not produce children would be void, and marriages between infertile people could not be performed (or would be annulled when the infertility was discovered). Every single legal issue concerning the raising of children---paternity, custody, child support---can be decided by a court without a marriage ever taking place between the parents. Every single right or duty arising from a marriage can be carried out without any children issuing from that marriage. In every single jurisdiction in the United States, marriage is simply a domestic partnership.

You are entitled to all the mythology you want about God initiating marriage in the Garden of Eden. But your religious dogma about marriage as a religious sacrament is not the law anywhere in the United States in 2012.
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Darth J wrote:Similarly, I think we can all infer that Buffalo believes that he really is a buffalo head nickel, and that Dr. Shades really believes himself to be a female Japanese celebrity named after a pair of sunglasses.

She's actually Filipino, but that's okay.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »

Darth J wrote:You have been repeatedly saying that Skinner v. Oklahoma defines the legal meaning of marriage. Nobody but you thinks this.

i have not been saying that. read for comprehension.

If the legal definition does not actually exist, then the legal "support" (your own scare quotes) does not actually exist.

At the time of Baker, the legal definition did exist in Minnesota and it was supported in Baker by Skinner.
Notwithstanding any subsequent appeals, or rulings outside of that jurisdiction, the fact remains that marriage was defined and it was buttressed by Skinner. You attempts to re-write history post-mortem does not change the fact that you put up a challenge, the challenge was met, and you lost that point. This is clearly evidenced by your immediate rebuttal with decisions that happened after Baker.
Even the appeal of Baker was not based on the definition of marriage but rather due process
"The district court failed to conduct an appropriate analysis under the Minnesota Constitution" - the appeals court decision does not contradict the definition of marriage.
Nevertheless, there are a majority of other states that have "defined" marriage, which again proves another of your assertions wrong...as in there is no legal definition of marriage being opposite sex required.
see the following:

There is nothing about the legal parameters of marriage that requires opposite-sex partners.

.....<insert states that have something about those exact legal parameters here>......

None of those states require married couples to have reproductive sex that produces children.
.....
Tell me one specific right or duty of a marriage any of those states that requires opposite-sex partners in order for that right or duty to be carried out.

These are an example of you moving the goal posts.
1st you say no legal parameters requiring opposite sex partners
then when you were provided with several states' legal parameters that require just that...you say, well no legal parameter requires marriage to have children


And I have never argued that homosexuals are within those criteria that would create a suspect classification.

based on your 2 separate quotes below, can you?

"Darth J" = That is not the issue. The issue is whether there is a rational basis for discriminating against same-sex couples...
.....No, because I have never argued a basis for same-sex marriage being recognized that requires homosexuality to be treated as a suspect classification.

Obviously you are conceding the point that there is no rational basis.

You have not shown a contradiction. Saying that a group is discriminated against does not equate to an assertion that the group deserves to be a suspect classification. If I were claiming that homosexuals were a suspect classification, I would not have said "rational basis." Rational basis is not the standard of review for suspect classifications. The only reason you think this is a misstep is because you don't know what you are talking about.

this entire section is ripe with inadequacy
how is it you propose a constitutional challenge without the rational basis test?
it also applies to both legislative and/or executive action whether those actions be substantive or procedural....so exactly how are you conveniently able to avoid the rational basis test?
Perhaps you should research "rational basis test with bite".

The couples should be granted a chance in District Court to prove that their rights were violated, she concluded.

this does not contradict any "definition" of marriage as you try to imply

"Even if the right to marry is not considered a fundamental right, appellants should have been granted an opportunity to show that MN DOMA is not a reasonable means to its stated objective -- to promote opposite-sex marriages to encourage procreation," Worke wrote.[/quote]
again does not contradict the definition

You are entitled to all the mythology you want about God initiating marriage in the Garden of Eden. But your religious dogma about marriage as a religious sacrament is not the law anywhere in the United States in 2012.

i have not asserted that there was a religious basis for the definition of marriage. If anything i have consistently promoted that LGBT marriage is a detriment to the virtues of our current culture and should be discouraged due to the obvious abnormalities inherent with the LGBT condition as well as its degenerative qualities. I have also consistently argued about LGBT being likely a genetic disorder or a psychological disorder and thus not to be encouraged.
Promoting any "Biblical" agenda on this topic i have yet to do......your presupposition is showing again.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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