The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_bcuzbcuz]

Is killing to protect one's property not killing? What use do we have for property when we ourselves are dead?

[_Franktalk]

You live in a world rife with contradictions.

From your point of view I can believe that. God says to help the less fortunate. That would be the people in the burning building. Would not the less fortunate also apply to a family about to be killed by some robber? I am not an observer in this world, I actively participate in the events. What do you do?

[_bcuzbcuz]

God says to help the less fortunate. ...... Would not the less fortunate also apply to a family about to be killed by some robber? ...... What do you do?

You make awkward, disjointed jumps in logic. I asked why/how your christianity gave you licence to kill to protect your property. You responded with "family about to be killed by some robber". That probably makes sense to you, in an American sense of perspective.

In my world (my part of the world...so very politically/socially different than the world you live in) robbers are not automatically assumed to be murderers. Someone breaks into my house? They're welcome to whatever they want to take. I'm not attached to worldly goods. Someone threatens my life? Never happened to me or anyone I know or anyone they know. The subject has never come up. Oh, the US government tried to send me to VietNam when I was studying in the US, does that count? I ran away.

[_Roger Morrison]

Roger,

One day I was walking down a street and I looked into a window of a store. In there was a vase. It was beautiful. I admired the vase and wished that I owned it. I looked at the vase and gave it great worth. If I saw it shattered I would be sad. I was willing to trade what I had to obtain that vase.

The world Roger is that vase. I was not thinking of the potter but of the pot. The unseen potter was responsible for the pot. The clay could be this or it could be that. It was the potter that made all. When you start to see the unseen power behind the creation then you will see many things you never saw before. Yet they were in front of you the whole time. Cast away what you see and concentrate on the unseen power of God the Creator. When you accept that this world could be completely different and it was God's choice to make it this way then you will be taking your first step.

Imagine if you can billions of pots with lips and a voice. Many talk to each other about how they came from a lump of clay and they say their form is an accident of arraignment. Others say that all lumps came from nothing that exploded one day. I see the world this way. It is silly to consider pots talking to each other this way because we know there is a potter. Now consider yourself. Who made you?

FRANK,
I'm not one for similes. I'm more for reality & pragmatism. Which, it appears to me, you aren't. Am I correct? You ask, "who made you? (me)"
Should I really care? Fact (the important thing) is, I'm here! Yippee!!
To do what I do. As an individual and as a member of one or more collectives, pooling talents, skills and resources to maintain & upgrade humanity, minimizing pain & suffering, to the best of my ability. "Man is that he might have joy!"
I hope you are getting, and creating, your share. . .
The Kingdom of God is less deserving of my interest, than is the Brother-Sister-hood of Humanity!
Best regards, Roger :-)

[_gdemetz]

Thanks Frank! I considered trying to go into greater detail regarding this complicated chapter, but I think I would probably just mess up and make things more confusing than I already did. However, I would just like to bear my personal testimony, with a great fear that it may be scoffed at. Honestly, I have not lived the life that would warrant much benefit from the gift of the Holy Ghost, and consequently I haven't had many notable spiritual experiences. However, when I was doing research on this very chapter in the LSU library for a commentary on the Book of Revelation, I hit a wall at about the middle of the 13th chapter, so I decided, after exhausting the New Catholic Encyclopedia, Clarke's Commentary, The Interpreter's Bible, and some church commentaries, along with many other reference sources, I decided to pray right then and there (silently). What happened next was shocking and hard to explain as I instantly could grasp the meaning of a number of things mentioned in that chapter all at once, and I also knew at that same time that there was an error regarding the "mark of the beast" which I have previously mentioned. Six months later, when I was reading Mormon Doctrine, "Sign of the Cross," I happened to notice a reference given which was the verse in Revelation 13 which mentioned the "mark of the beast." At the instant I saw that, I received the same "witness" that I had previously received at the LSU library, which confirmed that personal revelation that I had already received.

[_gdemetz]

Apparently, the late Apostle Bruce R. McConkie had received a personal revelation about this long before I did.

[_Franktalk]

Honestly, I have not lived the life that would warrant much benefit from the gift of the Holy Ghost, and consequently I haven't had many notable spiritual experiences.

Paul was hunting down Apostles to kill them when he was called. So there is hope for all of us.

If you have not done so you should view Chuck Missler's DVD commentary on Revelation. It is a futuristic view. I hold to the futuristic view as well. I don't agree with everything he says but he does a good job of describing the basic future view. If you like that then get the one on Daniel.

Frank

[_Franktalk]

The other day I was reading 2 Peter which I have done for at least a hundred times and it occurred to me that it may be a foreshadow of the restoration of the Gospel and the LDS church. I saw the comments about the flood and the scientific view of uniformitarianism as a time stamp. When I checked I found that Charles Lyell's book on geology which popularized uniformitarianism was published the same year as the Book of Mormon. I find that interesting.

[_Franktalk]

After doing some research I found that Charles Lyell's book Principles of Geology was published in Jan 1830. As it happens the Book of Mormon was published Jan 1830. Isn't it odd that what I thought of as a time stamp in 2 Peter lines up with the restored Church. How odd indeed.

[_sheryl]

Frank, both you and Sheryl have talked about the spiritual versus the physical world. What is your stance on the defense of home and family laws that exist in the US? The recent killing of Trayvon Martin in Florida, with the killer being free because of the "Stand Your Ground" legislation fills the news. Do you support the necessity of having a handgun for family protection? Do you own weapons yourself? What about you, Sheryl? Does your family own guns?

Sorry for the delay, but I found your question to be in line with thoughts that are arising today.

Jesus brought in a whole different idea of 'defending one's property'.

He taught to turn the other cheek.

To give to those who seek to steal from you.

To not resist evil.

All of these things seem nonsensical, indeed! For humanity was not and for most not ready yet for what Christ grounded in this world 2000 years ago.

Last night, I watched a tape of some negative thoughts being shared in regards to homosexuality by a well known public figure. This brought to mind the killing of Trayvon Martin. Because of the way the Trayvon presented himself in this world, with black skin, wearing a hoodie, walking through a neighborhood at dark, he appeared to his killer and probably to many others as a threatening figure and so in defense of a perceived threat, he was shot at and killed. But a closer looked revealed that he was not harmful to society at all. In fact it was the defensive act taken against him that became harmful.

I think the same thing is happening with that stand being taken against homosexuality. It dresses and walks publicly, giving the appearance, by the perspective of some, to be harmful to society. And so some feel compelled to come out and speak in defense of this perceived evil that will harm society. But a closer look will certainly reveal that homosexuality is not a threat (as it was in biblical times) to the fabric of society, in fact it has a positive influence.

Now one might say that the defensive action of shooting someone with a gun is different that a defensive action of shooting someone with words. But given the teachings of Jesus, I beg to differ. Check out [url=Matthew 5:20-22]Matthew 5[/url]. We murder with our words just the same as we can murder with a gun.

And so I offer that we are all murders, murdering others with our words, feeling justified because of a perceived threat, a threat to ourselves which Jesus, 2000 years ago, taught us is nonexistent.

We sin, we speak poorly of others, even react physically defensively, because we perceive something as being a threat to us, Jesus taught us that this is wrong. No one can actually harm who we really are.

It is because we believe the lie and are deluding into thinking we need to defend our selves, that we sin.

Shalom!

Sheryl