Stay Strong Saints

[_thews]

The 132nd section of Doctrine and Covenants explains God's views on polygamy, including Moses practice of it. Surely God would have had these prophets stop the practice it it were wrong or immoral!

Then according to your logic the Mormon God requires polygamy in heaven and you're good with that? Some data for you, you know, just in case you know anything about critical thought:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_polygamy

The 1835 and 1844 versions of Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) prohibited polygamy and declared that monogamy was the only acceptable form of marriage:

"In as much as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again".[4]

More data:
http://www.mrm.org/polygamy

D&C 132

While a Mormon would be excommunicated for practicing polygamy today, the command to engage in plural marriage is still included in modern editions of the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 132:4 declares: "For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory."

And, He doesn't change His mind about things as many people do. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Your KoolAid is missing the fact that the Mormon God changed his mind regarding black men holding the priesthood, the use of "White and delightsome" in the Book of Mormon and polygamy, so the above statement is absolutely false.

If the same circumstances exist, the He will allow it just as He did before! BC, don't worry; when you make it to exaltation, you will be stripped of all jealousy and envy then.

How many times do you need to throw God under the bus to excuse Joseph Smith for being a liar? Is Joseph Smith your God?

[_Themis]

The 132nd section of Doctrine and Covenants explains God's views on polygamy, including Moses practice of it. Surely God would have had these prophets stop the practice it it were wrong or immoral! And, He doesn't change His mind about things as many people do. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If the same circumstances exist, the He will allow it just as He did before! BC, don't worry; when you make it to exaltation, you will be stripped of all jealousy and envy then.

Section 132 like much of religion is inconsistent, and it is also very self serving in that it gives him and other men power to take wives even if there other wives do not approve. Joseph cannot even keep his own rules. Where does it say he can marry other men's wives? When people learn what things Joseph did, and how he and others could be very manipulative, it suggests to them very strongly that he was not acting on any commands from God, but himself.

[_gdemetz]

There does seem to be a dispute among the Mormons and anti-Mormons as to what happened concerning the history about the so-called taking of a man's wife. Of course, I prefer to believe that Mormon history concerning that. However, I will state that it is definitely not Mormon doctrine to ever take another mans wife, unless as the Mormon account goes, the man has abandoned her, and even if this is the case, a proper legal and ecclesiastical procedure should be followed!

[_Themis]

There does seem to be a dispute among the Mormons and anti-Mormons as to what happened concerning the history about the so-called taking of a man's wife. Of course, I prefer to believe that Mormon history concerning that. However, I will state that it is definitely not Mormon doctrine to ever take another mans wife, unless as the Mormon account goes, the man has abandoned her, and even if this is the case, a proper legal and ecclesiastical procedure should be followed!

I am not anti, and it is not really in dispute among most apologists who are aware of the evidence. Even family search lists this wives.

[_gdemetz]

Yes, that's true, but the exact circumstances which led to those wives are what is in dispute.

[_Themis]

Yes, that's true, but the exact circumstances which led to those wives are what is in dispute.

Which circumstances are you referring to? As I said it is well established that he married women who already had husbands, and that most were done without their husbands knowledge or approval.

[_gdemetz]

From the Mormon accounts, you hear of separated women, and from the anti-Mormon accounts you hear that they were not separated.

[_thews]

Yes, that's true, but the exact circumstances which led to those wives are what is in dispute.

They are only in dispute if you wish to believe it. You claim to believe in actual history, so let me show you some actual history (you know... actual facts) and not some LDS spoon-fed hogwash:

http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Joseph commanded to practice polygamy by an angel.

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259

And what about the timing of Joseph Smith's first plural marriage?
http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Joseph's first polygamous marriage was before the sealing authority was given.

Whether Joseph's marriage to Fanny Alger occurred in 1833 or 1835, it was illegal BOTH under the laws of the land AND under any theory of divine authority. Plural marriages are rooted in the notion of "sealing" for both time and eternity. The "sealing" power was not restored under LDS belief until April 1836 when Elijah appeared to Joseph and conferred the sealing keys upon him. There is no dispute at all among Latter-day Saints that prior to that time, the sealing power had not been on the earth since the time the Lord had removed it during the Great Apostasy. Thus, Joseph's "marriage" to Fanny Alger could NOT have been performed by anyone with the "sealing power" (unless it was done by Elijah himself, and no one that we are aware of has ever suggested that). No one on earth had authority either under the laws of man OR under the laws of God as understood and taught by the LDS Church to "marry" Joseph and Fanny. As a result, his marriage to her was a nullity from the beginning both in time and eternity, and any sexual relationship he may have had with her (and to which Oliver attested) can ONLY be fairly described as adulterous.

Joseph's marriage to Fanny is documented on the LDS website, FamilySearch.org.

Just in case you wish to review actual hisotry, here's the women Joseph Smith married who were already married:
http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Joseph's wives can be verified by going to the Church's own genealogical website, FamilySearch.org.

Note the following examples of Joseph's polyandry (one women being married to more than one man at the same time):

Mary Elizabeth Rollins married Adam Lightner on 11 Aug 1835.
Their son, George Algernon Lightner was born on 22 Mar 1842.
Adam Lightner died on 30 Aug 1885.
Joseph Smith married Mary Elizabeth Rollins on 17 Jan 1842, when she was about seven months pregnant (was Adam Lightner the father, or Joseph Smith?).

Zina Diantha Huntington married Henry Bailey Jacobs on 7 Mar 1841.
Henry Bailey Jacobs died on 1 Aug 1886.
Joseph Smith married Zina Diantha Huntington on 27 Oct 1841, about seven and a half months after she married Henry.

Prescendia Lathrop Huntington married Norman Buell on 6 Jan 1828.
There is no online record of Norman Buell's death.
Joseph Smith married Prescendia Lathrop Huntington on 11 Dec 1841.

Just in case you need some Pro-Mormon KoolAid:

http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

LDS apologists admit Joseph married other men's wives

From the pro-LDS site http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

In an article, published on LDS FAIR (The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research) web site, apologist Samuel Katich confirms the Church's acceptance that Joseph Smith did marry a number of women who were already legally married to other men. He says:

"Perhaps one of the most misunderstood aspects of Joseph Smith is that of his plural marriages to women that were already married to other men. This paper examines the forms of marriage in practice and looks at each of the women and men involved in the relationships in an attempt to better understand these unique marriages. Joseph Smith was eternally married to what currently are argued to be between eight and eleven already married women. If we consider only those eight marriages that can be adequately documented, we find that six of the marriages occurred within an eight-month period between late October 1841 and June 1842. Two more marriages occurred early in 1843. The women ranged in age from 20 to 47, with an average age of 29. Of those eight marriages, five were to women who had Mormon husbands and three were to women married to disaffected members or non-Mormons. Three of the women's first marriages to Mormon husbands and two of the marriages to non-Mormons lasted until death. The other three remaining marriages ended later in life after Joseph's death in 1844. In all cases the women continued to live with their first husbands. Technically, a woman with more than one husband is defined as being involved in a polyandrous relationship, or practicing polyandry."

ALSO, from the pro-LDS site http://www.fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20117b.html

Under the section called POLYANDRY the FAIR apologists admit it is true and attempt to defend it.
Critic's Comments: What possible justification can there be for marrying other men's wives? Most of them were even good LDS men. Some of the men were on missions for the church - giving their time in service to the church. What a way to get rewarded for their service.

Imagine if you had spent 50 years living with your devoted spouse, fully intending to be married together in heaven for all eternity, just like you have enjoyed on earth for the last 50 years and then the prophet says he wants your wife to be his 33rd wife. So in the next life you don't get your devoted wife of 50 years, instead you have to find another. Are we to believe that God actually commanded the prophet to do this? That is even more cruel than having someone else have sex with your wife.

At what point do you acknowledge actual fact and not what you wish were true?

[_Themis]

From the Mormon accounts, you hear of separated women, and from the anti-Mormon accounts you hear that they were not separated.

Irrelevant to the fact he married women who had husbands. It is also accepted by many apologists that they were not separated from at least most of them, if not all at the time of marriage to Joesph. I am not sure how this line of argument that I have never seen evdience for somehow makes it alright. It seems more a desperate attempt to somehow try and defend the indefensible. If you have evidence to say otherwise I am willing to look at it.

[_gdemetz]

Thews, according to the apologist site which you referred to these marriages were what is referred to in the church as "spiritual" marriages or sealings in the hereafter and didn't apply to this life, but I am glad that you mentioned these to me as I was not aware of them.