God's Promise to Send Elijah before the Second Coming

[_gdemetz]

In other words, Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was a forerunner to Him by referring to him as Elias. There are disputations among theologians as to what person this originally referred to named Elias, who John's fore running was symbolic of, however, it is apparent that this did refer to some old prophet named Elias. This should, however, not be confused with Elijah (Elias in Greek). Regardless of what language it is, what you are saying would not make sense. Christ was not referring to John the Baptist as Elijah (See Wikipedia, "John the Baptist," under "John the Baptist and Old Testament prophecy")!

[_ludwigm]

In other words, Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was a forerunner to Him by referring to him as Elias.

No.

10. És megkérdezék őt az ő tanítványai, mondván: Miért mondják tehát az írástudók, hogy előbb ILLÉSnek kell eljőnie?
11. Jézus pedig felelvén, monda nékik: ILLÉS bizony eljő előbb, és mindent helyreállít;
12. De mondom néktek, hogy ILLÉS immár eljött, és nem ismerék meg őt, hanem azt mívelék vele, a mit akarának. Ezenképen az ember Fiának is szenvednie kell majd ő tőlük.
13. Ekkor megértették a tanítványok, hogy KERESZTELŐ JÁNOSról szóla nékik.

There is no John the Baptist, there is KERESZTELŐ JÁNOS.
And Jesus was saying that KERESZTELŐ JÁNOS was a forerunner to Him by referring to him as ILLÉS.

10. Und seine Jünger fragten ihn und sprachen: Was sagen denn die Schriftgelehrten, ELIA müsse zuvor kommen?
11. Jesus antwortete und sprach zu ihnen: ELIA soll ja zuvor kommen und alles zurechtbringen.
12. Doch ich sage euch: Es ist ELIA schon kommen, und sie haben ihn nicht erkannt, sondern haben an ihm getan, was sie wollten. Also wird auch des Menschen Sohn leiden müssen von ihnen.
13. Da verstunden die Jünger, daß er von JOHANNES Democrat TÄUFER zu ihnen geredet hatte.

As You see - I hope You has the eye to see - Jesus was saying that JOHANNES Democrat TÄUFER was a forerunner to Him by referring to him as ELIA.

There are disputations among theologians as to what person this originally referred to named Elias, who John's fore running was symbolic of

No disputation exists outside of Mormonism. There is a prophet, mentioned ~60 times in Old Testament (first time in 1 Kings 17:1) and 30 times in New Testament (first time in Matthew 16:14). In all Bible - I repeat A_L_L B_I_B_L_E - uses the same name in Old Testament and in New Testament, with a few exception.
Some stupid translation (3-4 English, and the Swedish one) use a different name (Elias) in the New Testament. Nobody knows, why.
Real theologians in general know Greek, Hebrew, Latin and their own native language, they have no such problem with biblical names in different languages.

Christ was not referring to John the Baptist as Elijah

10. And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
11. And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things;
12. but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
13. Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Which is the worse translation? The NASB or the KJV?

Compare them!

9. Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee
13. And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.

25. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26. But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto [b]Sarepta[/b], a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

As You see, the names used in Old Testament are Zidon, Zarephath and Elijah, in the New Testament Sidon, Sarepta and Elias. About the same story.

The NASB uses Sidon, Zarephath and Elijah. The same names in Old Testament and in New Testament.

9. "Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and stay there; behold, I have commanded a widow there to provide for you."
13. Then Elijah said to her, "Do not fear; go, do as you have said, but make me a little bread cake from it first and bring it out to me, and afterward you may make one for yourself and for your son.

25. "But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;
26. and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.

I don't assert that the NASB is better in every area. Anyway, the names in Old Testament and in New Testament are consistent.

Regardless of what language it is, what you are saying would not make sense.

Regardless of what language it is?
Do You know only English language?
Do You know only the KJV Bible?

it is apparent that this did refer to some old prophet named Elias. This should, however, not be confused with Elijah (Elias in Greek).

It is apparent that the only confused people are whose Bible intentionally baffle its readers, as the KJV one does it.


Man, really don't You comprehend that biblical names - and other names as well - have different versions in different languages?
If one specific Bible don't include the name Elias - uses different character string to denominate the same human entity - then the "Elias means forerunner" statement simply makes no sense.


I tell You a simple example. My given (baptismal, christian) name is Lajos. Moreover, it is not my first name, because we Hungarians use the family name first. I don't use this name around in Internet world, because any English speaker can pronounce correctly only the "L" sound. I use the Ludwig, the German version, which is by the way my nickname in the family and in my workplaces (long story, why it is). The English version were Lewis, I didn't ever used it. Years before, a very loveable old lady from Switzerland said she doesn't like the name Ludwig, she would call me Louis. And for her, I was Louis - I used to call her Tante =aunt (without any kinship).

What is my name, then?

[_Darth J]

There's no "Elias/Elijah" in the Italian Bible, either. "Elia" is Elijah's name in Italian. There is no "Elias" that's supposedly another person.

Giovanni Diodati Italian translation of the Bible

Matteo (Matthew) 17

10 E i discepoli gli domandarono: Perché dunque dicono gli scribi che prima deve venir Elia?

11 Ed egli, rispondendo, disse loro: Certo, Elia deve venire e ristabilire ogni cosa.

12 Ma io vi dico: Elia è già venuto, e non l’hanno riconosciuto; anzi, gli hanno fatto tutto quello che hanno voluto; così anche il Figliuol dell’uomo ha da patire da loro.

13 Allora i discepoli intesero ch’era di Giovanni Battista ch’egli aveva loro parlato.

1 Re (1 Kings) 17

13 Elia le disse: "Non temere; va’ e fa’ come tu hai detto; ma fanne prima una piccola stiacciata per me, e portamela; poi ne farai per te e per il tuo figliuolo.

14 Poiché così dice l’Eterno, l’Iddio d’Israele: Il vaso della farina non si esaurirà e l’orciuolo dell’olio non calerà, fino al giorno che l’Eterno manderà la pioggia sulla terra".

15 Ed ella andò e fece come le avea detto Elia; ed essa, la sua famiglia ed Elia ebbero di che mangiare per molto tempo.

16 Il vaso della farina non si esaurì, e l’orciuolo dell’olio non calò, secondo la parola che l’Eterno avea pronunziata per bocca d’Elia.

There is no theological controversy at work or big mystery to be solved. Joseph Smith didn't know that Elias and Elijah are the exact same name. He was making up Bible fanfic based on his accepting the King James translation at face value. That's why he made telling mistakes like this. The idea that Elias and Elijah are different people is, frankly, quite stupid. It would be like having a translation of a Spanish text and trying to argue that "Miguel" and "Michael" are different people, or that "La Ciudad de Mexico" and "Mexico City" are different cities.

And I guess I'm not as impressed as I'm supposed to be by being referred to Bruce R. McConkie's famous book, Naked Assertions, Appeals to My Own Authority, and Things I Made Up Out of Thin Air (otherwise known as Mormon Doctrine).

[_gdemetz]

No disputation exists without Mormonism? I don't agree with that. I already gave you quote from other sources which used including an anti Mormon one who used the term Elias to mean forerunner. It's not Mormonisms fault that the Greeks could not write Elijah so they had to write Elias. Also, if you will check with many Bible concordances, you will see that they will make a distinction between the Elias which refers to Elijah and the Elias which does not! It's not just me! For example, check out "Matthew 17..." on the internet and see the commentary there, and it's non Mormon! I'll quote it for you.

"Elias shall truly come first: this is indeed a tenet of the scribes, and it is certain, that there is a prophesy in Malachi 4:5 of the coming of Elias, of one that goes under that name, NOT OF ELIAS THE TISHBITE {OR ELIJAH}, IN PERSON, BUT OF ONE THAT WAS TO COME IN HIS POWER AND SPIRIT, and restore all things."

[_Darth J]

No disputation exists without Mormonism? I don't agree with that.

No, there is no disputation outside of Mormonism.

I already gave you quote from other sources which used including an anti Mormon one who used the term Elias to mean forerunner.

And it's not as if Joseph Smith ever borrowed mistaken ideas about the Bible from other people.

It's not Mormonisms fault that the Greeks could not write Elijah so they had to write Elias.

IT'S THE SAME DAMN WORD. This argument is just as fatuous coming from Bruce R. McConkie as it is from you. What you just said is no different than, "the English speakers could not write Bob so they had to write Bob."

Also, if you will check with many Bible concordances, you will see that they will make a distinction between the Elias which refers to Elijah and the Elias which does not! It's not just me! For example, check out "Matthew 17..." on the internet and see the commentary there, and it's non Mormon! I'll quote it for you.

"Elias shall truly come first: this is indeed a tenet of the scribes, and it is certain, that there is a prophesy in Malachi 4:5 of the coming of Elias, of one that goes under that name, NOT OF ELIAS THE TISHBITE {OR ELIJAH}, IN PERSON, BUT OF ONE THAT WAS TO COME IN HIS POWER AND SPIRIT, and restore all things."

See that underlined part? It's acknowledging that Elias and Elijah are the exact same person. Here are some more commentaries:

http://Bible.cc/matthew/17-11.htm

Nobody thinks that Elias and Elijah were different people. Nobody. It's not any different than if you were trying to claim that "Maria" and "Mary" are different people when you're translating from Spanish or Italian into English. IT'S THE EXACT SAME WORD.

Look at all the non-English versions of the Bible you have been shown in this thread. Elias and Elijah are the same name for the same person. I'm sorry that your concept of the universe is so wrapped up in the tall tales of a Yankee treasure hunter that you have to make ludicrous arguments to defend his naïvété about the Bible.

[_gdemetz]

We are not the only ones saying Elias! I have already given many quotes about that!

[_Darth J]

We are not the only ones saying Elias! I have already given many quotes about that!

Where are the quotes by a biblical scholar agreeing that there was a prophet before Elijah who was named "Elias," and that Elijah and Elias are different names?

[_gdemetz]

I already gave them here on this post!

[_Darth J]

I already gave them here on this post!

Nope. Only Campbell, but he, like Joseph Smith, was just taking the KJV at face value because he, like Joseph Smith, didn't know what he was talking about.

[_ludwigm]

I see it warn't no use wasting words—you can't learn a gdemetz to argue. So I quit.

I never see such a nigger. If he got a notion in his head once, there warn't no getting it out again. He was the most down on Solomon of any nigger I ever see. So I went to talking about other kings, and let Solomon slide. I told about Louis Sixteenth that got his head cut off in France long time ago; and about his little boy the dolphin, that would a been a king, but they took and shut him up in jail, and some say he died there.
"Po' little chap."
"But some says he got out and got away, and come to America."
"Dat's good! But he'll be pooty lonesome—dey ain' no kings here, is dey, Huck?"
"No."
"Den he cain't git no situation. What he gwyne to do?"
"Well, I don't know. Some of them gets on the police, and some of them learns people how to talk French."
"Why, Huck, doan' de French people talk de same way we does?"
"NO, Jim; you couldn't understand a word they said—not a single word."
"Well, now, I be ding-busted! How do dat come?"
"I don't know; but it's so. I got some of their jabber out of a book. S'pose a man was to come to you and say Polly-voo-franzy—what would you think?"
"I wouldn' think nuff'n; I'd take en bust him over de head—dat is, if he warn't white. I wouldn't 'low no nigger to call me dat."
"Shucks, it ain't calling you anything. It's only saying, do you know how to talk French?"
"Well, den, why couldn't he SAY it?"
"Why, he IS a-saying it. That's a Frenchman's WAY of saying it."
"Well, it's a blame ridicklous way, en I doan' want to hear no mo' 'bout it. Dey ain' no sense in it."
"Looky here, Jim; does a cat talk like we do?"
"No, a cat don't."
"Well, does a cow?"
"No, a cow don't, nuther."
"Does a cat talk like a cow, or a cow talk like a cat?"
"No, dey don't."
"It's natural and right for 'em to talk different from each other, ain't it?"
"Course."
"And ain't it natural and right for a cat and a cow to talk different from US?"
"Why, mos' sholy it is."
"Well, then, why ain't it natural and right for a FRENCHMAN to talk different from us? You answer me that."
"Is a cat a man, Huck?"
"No."
"Well, den, dey ain't no sense in a cat talkin' like a man. Is a cow a man?—er is a cow a cat?"
"No, she ain't either of them."
"Well, den, she ain't got no business to talk like either one er the yuther of 'em. Is a Frenchman a man?"
"Yes."
"WELL, den! Dad blame it, why doan' he TALK like a man? You answer me DAT!"
I see it warn't no use wasting words—you can't learn a nigger to argue. So I quit.

by the way for Mark Twain - and for his readers - the n* word wasn't censored...