The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_Themis]

Maybe that was the wrong spirit. You can't have the true Spirit, and then still believe many false teachings.

Maybe yours is the wrong one. You dodged sheryl's question of how you would really know, not whether it fits with what you want to believe.

[_Franktalk]

Maybe yours is the wrong one. You dodged sheryl's question of how you would really know, not whether it fits with what you want to believe.

I will attempt to answer this question. You must see spirit enlightenment as a path. We don't get to the end until we are ready for the end. So truth comes to us as milk at first and until we can embrace that truth we can't move forward. So this is knowledge and experience which is not the whole truth and we can all misunderstand that partial truth. This is expected and that is why we learn line upon line. So we all will appear to someone outside the path as all over the place, and in a sense that is true. But what a path to be on. Knowing that each day we can make progress towards an understanding in the fullness. There are some who I can see are making progress and even though I think they are wrong on many issues I love to see the progress. The hardest part is to cast off this world. For some on the path they came to the path because at some time they read something or experienced something which turned their direction. For some this is reading some scholars work on the scripture. For others it might have been the witness of a new life. There are many ways we start. But at some point we cast off those stepping stones to move along. We must become our own witness. We leave behind us the habit of referencing somebody else's ideas and form our own. This is hard. To switch from being convinced by someone else's words to just gleaming the best truth and pondering everything. The Holy Ghost will be our guide but He is a guide and not a reference book. Another big stumbling block is accepting God. There are many who say if I was God then I would have done this or that, they say they have a problem with God because He does not act as they do. With those kinds of thoughts you get kicked off the path. Sin is also a stumbling block. The Holy Ghost will not come and guide you if you are always in sin. The other stumbling block is the idea that if I just join this church or do this thing then I will get the spirit. That is trying to buy the free gift and God does not like that. All of this is in scripture.

I have met a few people that are on the path. They belong to many different churches or no church.

[_gdemetz]

Themis, it's hard to tell someone who has never eaten pizza exactly what it tastes like! Just read Alma chapter 32. He explains it very well. He states that one needs to experiment with it. If one just has the spirit of contention, of which Christ states they are not His, and just wants to argue about something that they no nothing of since they have never reaped the benefits of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and never tries the experiment Alma speaks of, then they will never know!!!

[_sheryl]

Sheryl,

It is true that God sets a stage for us and of course that stage is a very powerful driver of how we learn to deal with life. I have often thought that the environments are so powerful that each of us has choice but the unequal nature of the stage mandates the full range of spectrum of good and evil for us to experience. I have also thought that some people have no spirit and are basically robots that do the things that are required so that we all experience what we need to. But another view is that some spirits that come here are already evil and God places them to do the most good in the sense of the stage. A vastly protected life does not advance.

I think that the range of spirits coming into this world are very different from each other. So in equal environments they will act very differently. So yes I can see that God does control much of the environment but I think that individual differences in spirit may drive the system more than environment. Also we seek environments on this earth. We tend to gravitate to what we desire. So where is the balance between the setting of the stage and our own free will of character that we brought with us?

Hi Frank,

Indeed we each have responsibility, the point is that it does not seem that our 'world view' is important to God. He places us in the places and at the times in which and at which our lives begin, which is the greatest determining factor of what we will be exposed to in life. And Paul states that God does not place us in theses places and at these times to help shape our beliefs or our world view, but so that we each might grope for him.

Grope: 1. To reach about uncertainly; feel one's way: groped for the telephone.
2. To search blindly or uncertainly: grope for an answer.

So we are placed in times and at places so that we will reach about uncertainly, eg not knowing what we are looking for, searching blindly or uncertainly. And so given this scripture it seems that the more certain we are of ourselves, then the more we are not fulfilling God's intent.

According to Paul, God wants us uncertain, not really knowing what is going on, groping, reaching out for him as though we are blind, or are in the dark.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_gdemetz]

Sheryl, that does not mean that God wants us to be spiritually blind. It means that He wants us to exercise our faith in Him (experiment as Alma stated) and walk from the darkness toward the light.

[_Roger Morrison]

Sheryl,

It is true that God sets a stage for us and of course that stage is a very powerful driver of how we learn to deal with life. I have often thought that the environments are so powerful that each of us has choice but the unequal nature of the stage mandates the full range of spectrum of good and evil for us to experience. I have also thought that some people have no spirit and are basically robots that do the things that are required so that we all experience what we need to. But another view is that some spirits that come here are already evil and God places them to do the most good in the sense of the stage. A vastly protected life does not advance.
What makes you think it's true that God sets a stage for us? It is a commonly held opinion. But "true"?? I could ask, proof? evidence? But won't, knowing there is only speculation, supposition, dreams and legend...
I think that the range of spirits coming into this world are very different from each other. So in equal environments they will act very differently. So yes I can see that God does control much of the environment but I think that individual differences in spirit may drive the system more than environment. Also we seek environments on this earth. We tend to gravitate to what we desire. So where is the balance between the setting of the stage and our own free will of character that we brought with us?

"...character that we brought with us?" is a more realistic observation than most made on this thread -- IMPO ... I endorse that cuz it agrees with the thesis of my book, Copulating Luck In Our Sort-of Christian World. Wherein I suggest, a person is born with an individual load of genes & DNA into an environment, not of their choosing, to be acted upon by influences -- good, bad, or indifferent. Again not of their choosing. How they fare in life might depend in large part on what they brought with them: intelligence, talent, strengths, weaknesses, etc. as much as where and with whom luck introduced them to... Functional, dysfunctional, warm, kind, patient, cruel, abusive, positive/negative nurturing, etc. Non of which God nor preexistence had anything to do with. In my world view.

Humanity does it for and against humanity. We are our best friends and our worst enemies! As we become aware of ways and means of integrated survival, sacrificing non to appease greed and ego, we will live as the wise have visioned. Does "God"have any role to play in our transformation? If so what is it?
Warm regards, Roger

Hi Frank,

Indeed we each have responsibility, the point is that it does not seem that our 'world view' is important to God. He places us in the places and at the times in which and at which our lives begin, which is the greatest determining factor of what we will be exposed to in life. And Paul states that God does not place us in theses places and at these times to help shape our beliefs or our world view, but so that we each might grope for him.

Grope: 1. To reach about uncertainly; feel one's way: groped for the telephone.
2. To search blindly or uncertainly: grope for an answer.

So we are placed in times and at places so that we will reach about uncertainly, eg not knowing what we are looking for, searching blindly or uncertainly. And so given this scripture it seems that the more certain we are of ourselves, then the more we are not fulfilling God's intent.

According to Paul, God wants us uncertain, not really knowing what is going on, groping, reaching out for him as though we are blind, or are in the dark.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_Themis]

Maybe yours is the wrong one. You dodged sheryl's question of how you would really know, not whether it fits with what you want to believe.

I will attempt to answer this question. You must see spirit enlightenment as a path. We don't get to the end until we are ready for the end. So truth comes to us as milk at first and until we can embrace that truth we can't move forward. So this is knowledge and experience which is not the whole truth and we can all misunderstand that partial truth. This is expected and that is why we learn line upon line. So we all will appear to someone outside the path as all over the place, and in a sense that is true. But what a path to be on. Knowing that each day we can make progress towards an understanding in the fullness. There are some who I can see are making progress and even though I think they are wrong on many issues I love to see the progress. The hardest part is to cast off this world. For some on the path they came to the path because at some time they read something or experienced something which turned their direction. For some this is reading some scholars work on the scripture. For others it might have been the witness of a new life. There are many ways we start. But at some point we cast off those stepping stones to move along. We must become our own witness. We leave behind us the habit of referencing somebody else's ideas and form our own. This is hard. To switch from being convinced by someone else's words to just gleaming the best truth and pondering everything. The Holy Ghost will be our guide but He is a guide and not a reference book. Another big stumbling block is accepting God. There are many who say if I was God then I would have done this or that, they say they have a problem with God because He does not act as they do. With those kinds of thoughts you get kicked off the path. Sin is also a stumbling block. The Holy Ghost will not come and guide you if you are always in sin. The other stumbling block is the idea that if I just join this church or do this thing then I will get the spirit. That is trying to buy the free gift and God does not like that. All of this is in scripture.

I have met a few people that are on the path. They belong to many different churches or no church.

You never really answered the question. Your post is so full of assumptions you just assume are true to begin with, and you again ramble on without addressing the issue. You say the HG will be ones guide, but then how does one know the HG is communicating with them?

[_Franktalk]

Roger,

You said ""...character that we brought with us?" is a more realistic observation than most made on this thread -- IMPO ... I endorse that cuz it agrees with the thesis of my book, Copulating Luck In Our Sort-of Christian World. Wherein I suggest, a person is born with an individual load of genes & DNA into an environment, not of their choosing, to be acted upon by influences -- good, bad, or indifferent. Again not of their choosing. How they fare in life might depend in large part on what they brought with them: intelligence, talent, strengths, weaknesses, etc. as much as where and with whom luck introduced them to... Functional, dysfunctional, warm, kind, patient, cruel, abusive, positive/negative nurturing, etc. Non of which God nor preexistence had anything to do with. In my world view. "

If this is true then we can sort out people by their DNA and kill off people who steal and people who murder. That is insane. Show me proof that being a murderer is inherited.

[_Themis]

Themis, it's hard to tell someone who has never eaten pizza exactly what it tastes like!

Yet people do tell people what it tastes like. It's interesting that this what we say when we think we are talking to an unbeliever, but when we think we are talking to believers we actually get some details. If you read LDS teachings you will see that the church does give details. I am probably more familiar with it then you as you may be a more recent convert.

Just read Alma chapter 32. He explains it very well. He states that one needs to experiment with it.

I have done the experiment for decades, so I think I may have some understanding of it and it's flaws in reasoning. The main problem. I will begin to swell within you and is that it can be done with any religious beliefs like Wicca and have the same results. It will increase your faith and belief in Wicca. It will begin to swell within and enlighten of the truths of Wicca. The formula really is for self deception.

If one just has the spirit of contention, of which Christ states they are not His, and just wants to argue about something that they no nothing of since they have never reaped the benefits of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and never tries the experiment Alma speaks of, then they will never know!!!

I am only asking you questions and trying to get you to think with an open mind and explain how you would know a HG is actually communicating with you. Since I have been a believing member for decades and served in church in many capacities including a mission, you should have less difficulty. Remember FLDS get the same spirit when praying about Warren Jeffs. This is actually common among both religious and non-religious, although different groups have different interpretations.

[_Franktalk]

You never really answered the question. Your post is so full of assumptions you just assume are true to begin with, and you again ramble on without addressing the issue. You say the HG will be ones guide, but then how does one know the HG is communicating with them?

You are asking the wrong person. You need to ask the Holy Ghost. The reason you ask this question (I assume) is that you don't have a relationship with God. You can't have anyone as an intermediary. It does not work. Just as you lean on the world you lean on other men for answers. Stop that. Seek answers from the source of all truth.