The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_gdemetz]

Sheryl, I agree with what you are stating, but I would add that the Holy Spirit is also able, and does reveal to us the truth of things we learn. For example, my people learn about the Book of Mormon by reading it, and as Moroni promises, they can have the truthfulness of it verified to them by the Holy Spirit.

[_Franktalk]

Well Frank, it's your choice (free will) to believe who & what you want. As do I...
But really, to put such stock in the words/thinking of Saul/Paul who is simply passing on the beliefs of his ancient cult, as if they were based on facts, to use your words: "upsets me...to see you carried away on waves of," fantasia.
"This stuff about inherited traits," is not Satan's design, as you state it to be, it is a knowledge base that can forewarn of discomforting health issues that might be remedied or prevented. I happen to be dealing with diabetes, a condition common with my ancestors. Luckily, I haven't lost my sight or limbs as some of them did!
Frank, please be cautious with your loose Theistic and Satan empowerment. Intelligence & knowledge, when properly applied, with compassion, are the keys to an improved existence for future generations. . .
Kind regards, Roger

How do you feel if I told you that we should sort out infants and kill them if they have defects like diabetes? After all we want to clean up the gene pool don't we?

Isn't this the logical extension of what you just said? And if you don't feel that way then the guy next to you will interpret what you said in that manner. I said the application of eugenics is Satan's device (as in to use it). I did not say that inherited traits are Satan's design.

Were all born with gifts and limitations. Deal with it.

If you are in to science and the natural way then please learn all about it. Research how defects change DNA and how those defects travel to the next generation. Then do the math and see how the entire gene pool is on the edge of collapse. See how the number of defects are so many that natural selection can't weed then out. Do the research like I have. I know for a fact that what most people believe about in evolution is a lie. Here is something to chew on.

"So with three genetic deaths per person why are we not extinct? The data would suggest that harmful mutations need to be weeded out in clusters at a time. One way to achieve this would be if natural selection operated such that individuals with the most mutations are preferentially eliminated (e.g. harmful mutations interact). This could only happen in a sexual species where mutations are shuffled each generation by genetic recombination, and so the existence of such a high deleterious mutation rate has been taken as further vindication that sex (meiotic recombination) is an efficient way to eliminate harmful mutations."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7566/

In the above article he is guessing that sexual recombination solves the defect problem. But the problem is the measured rate came from a sexual recombination population.

"We know that humans have a high deleterious mutation rate, but the consequences of relaxing natural selection in contemporary populations will depend on the distribution of fitness effects of new mutations, and we currently lack information from an appropriate model. By assuming Mukai's estimate of the average selective effect of deleterious mutations in Drosophila, CROW 1997 Down and LYNCHet al. 1999BDown have argued that human populations may suffer significant genetic degradation within a short period of time. However, if there is variation among selective effects, as seems likely given the contrasting MA and molecular estimates of U in E. coli, then the average selective effect is a gross overestimate, as is our likely genetic degradation. How humans and related species evade the effects of mutation load on an evolutionary time scale is also an open question."

http://www.genetics.org/content/153/2/515.full

In the above article he is saying that we are losing the battle to deleterious mutations. He says that how we survived for so long is a mystery.

"The decline in the scaling of extinction time because of habitat fragmentation is especially troublesome from a conservation perspective. Because the decline is sudden but extinction itself still takes a while to occur, the metapopulation may be completely inviable on intermediate or long time scales, although appearing healthy on short time scales. In other words, a sharp reduction in time to extinction can occur for a gradual increase in the degree of habitat fragmentation, and the looming fate of the fragmented metapopulation will not be immediately obvious. Fortunately, because extinction is delayed, there might be sufficient time for habitat remediation that would presumably restore efficient selection against deleterious mutations."

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/5/2928.full

It used to be that articles wrote about how we are all getting better with time. Now it is becoming more frequent that we see articles that dance around the issue of extinction. You see the defect load is so great that the numbers and not the opinions are driving the research. Many have already read the handwriting on the wall. In my opinion we were designed to only last so long on this earth before we receive a new designed body. The whole species is falling apart by design. Soon to be reset. If you wish to see things differently that is fine. But don't tell me that facts are on your side, they are not.

[Guest]

Sheryl, I agree with what you are stating, but I would add that the Holy Spirit is also able, and does reveal to us the truth of things we learn. For example, my people learn about the Book of Mormon by reading it, and as Moroni promises, they can have the truthfulness of it verified to them by the Holy Spirit.

Hi gdemetz!

Yes and is this not also translated into the experience of a burning of the heart to confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon?

Know that this is quite different from the experiences of the Holy Spirit as described and promised in the New Testament.

Masters, or those who have found Eternal Life, will tell us that the burning in our heart is a touching of our true heart and occurs when we love, others and God - when we open ourselves up to others, and to God, when we long for God, our heart will burn. This is the spark within us glowing or being awakened.

And I have to share that in my experience, a spirit that confirms our small, limited ideas about God is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works to lift us beyond ourselves, expanding our awareness beyond what we are capable of seeing or hearing on our own. So the Holy Spirit does not guide us into understanding by confirming a worldly understanding that we have encountered, but by lifting our consciousness up to a greater understanding than can be found in the world, letting us enter into and experience this greater understanding. We then might try to communicate that understanding to others, but that is not completely possible. For others to understand as we do, the Holy Spirit must likewise elevate their consciousness, letting them enter into and experience for themselves.

To put it simply, the Holy Spirit does not confirm ideas or thoughts about God that we have encountered, but elevates our consciousness so that we might experience something of God for ourselves. Spirits that confirm ideas or thoughts are lesser spirits.

The Holy Spirit will never tell us that we are 'right', or that any man's limited ideas or opinions about God is right, but will show us.


Shalom!

Sheryl

[_Themis]

It's my understanding that when one is spiritually blind they are unable to discern truths which are confirmed by the Spirit. I think this is what Christ meant when He stated that, "Ye have eyes, but ye do not see."

No, that's just the excuse people give for why some peoples interpretation of their experiences with the spirit don't agree with theirs. I notice that how ones knows it is a divine being communicating with them is still being avoided. I guess it's just easier to ignore this problem.

[_Franktalk]

Sheryl,

As time goes on I have to agree with you on the Spirit. Unless one gets a vision the guide is but a guide. But what an experience.

Frank

[_sheryl]

Sheryl,

As time goes on I have to agree with you on the Spirit. Unless one gets a vision the guide is but a guide. But what an experience.

Frank

Yes, we cannot tell others what to believe. True belief comes from experience, from what one has seen and heard, and it is the Holy Spirit that guides others into such experiencing.

While the mental body is engaged in our exploration and finding of Truth, Truth is beyond the mental and so cannot just be thought, or something we think. Truth is only known as it is experienced.

Sheryl

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Sheryl, you asked this question a while ago. Sorry to be so slow responding...

Hi Roger!

"I wonder what you think of what is known as reincarnation?"
It is part of our body of teachings that finding Eternal Life is finding and cleaving to the Eternal Aspect of us - our Higher Soul, or whom we are in Christ. The outer aspect, our personality in this world, is likened to the temporary blossoms on a plant - they come and go. If we think we are simply the blossom, we live and then we die. But if we awaken to the Eternal Aspect of ourselves, we realize that we are instead the 'plant'. Blossoms come and go, but we as the plant remain awake and aware in our birth and death.


Me: You make a nice, rather reasonable presentation Sheryl... However, I don't subscribe to the reincarnation theory. I am not aware of any hard evidence that justifies believing reincarnation is a valid process.
Further, I don't subscribe to original-sin, (the fall) redemption, resurrection nor a "next life". The so-called "Plan of salvation" is simply a figment of human imagination responding to questions of ancients groping for answers. When one accepts the realities of life (& death) mysteries, fears and anxieties fade away as awareness fills voids of ignorance...

I think humanity evolves generation by generation, as ways & means are discovered, & applied to life challenges. Each person, circumstances permitting, applies their, fitting, part into the matrix, taking us into the future. Generally improving over time from what once was, to what is. Then on to what can come, IF/WHEN human and natural resources are utilized compassionately.

Using your "Plant Model", I suggest that humanity is THE "Plant". And as such is constantly creating "Blossoms that come & go." All contributing, some more than others, but each being essential to the whole. . .
This seems quite practical to me; following the "Golden-rule" principle; that has sadly been side-tracked to accommodate competition & winning! All under the eyes & protection of a Christian Nation! YIKES!!
Nice chatting with You Sheryl! Roger

[_gdemetz]

Sheryl, what you are saying is not consistent with what the Book of Mormon teaches, specifically Moroni's promise that the truth of all things may be manifested by the Holy Ghost. It is also not in accordance with what the Bible teaches 1 Corinthians 2:13 mentions the Holy ghost teaching. Also, Hebrews 2:4 states that it can witness unto one, as does Hebrews 10:15. The scriptures are quite clear that the Holy Ghost can witness of truth, teach truth, and bring to remembrance the truth of all things:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever, I have said unto you."

And yet you seem to believe, that the Holy ghost could not teach the men who walked with Christ who He was, or that the Holy Ghost could not teach me something or confirm something that is true! The Holy Ghost can bear witness of the truth, can teach, bring something to remembrance, or do anything else that it sees fit to do!

[Guest]

Sheryl, what you are saying is not consistent with what the Book of Mormon teaches, specifically Moroni's promise that the truth of all things may be manifested by the Holy Ghost. It is also not in accordance with what the Bible teaches 1 Corinthians 2:13 mentions the Holy ghost teaching. Also, Hebrews 2:4 states that it can witness unto one, as does Hebrews 10:15. The scriptures are quite clear that the Holy Ghost can witness of truth, teach truth, and bring to remembrance the truth of all things:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever, I have said unto you."

And yet you seem to believe, that the Holy ghost could not teach the men who walked with Christ who He was, or that the Holy Ghost could not teach me something or confirm something that is true! The Holy Ghost can bear witness of the truth, can teach, bring something to remembrance, or do anything else that it sees fit to do!

Hi gdemetz,

I understand how dear to you are your beliefs. We all have a tendency to see in things what we already know, what is already familiar to us. Let me demonstrate this, show how, to me, these scriptures completely support what I am saying.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

In my reading this speaks of the Holy Spirit teaching. And did I not say that the Holy Spirit guides us into understanding by revealing truth to us in a way we experience it. This is the highest form of teaching, yes?

2 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

In this, I read that their hearing directly from Jesus, not from men, and was confirmed. No more details are given. But if we look at the word translated as confirmed here it other times is translated as established, proven. Indeed! They were shown Truth in way that is was proven, established within them. Not a mere nod, such as a burning of the heart. But a living experience of the Truth, establishing it within them.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Here I see scripture speaking of the Holy Spirit as a witness, the presence of the Holy Spirit as a witness, its present being made evident through God's Laws being written on our hearts and minds, through spiritual gifting - the Power and Presence of God being experienced being a witness to Jesus as High Priest.

And just as is promised, those who follow after him experience a greater Power and Presence of God than was evident in his ministry. And so we know if we are walking with True Apostles and disciples by the Power and Presence of Christ that manifests through them, in spiritual gifting, in miracles being performed, thus the presence of the Holy Spirit is a witness!


Shalom!

Sheryl

[_gdemetz]

The Book of Mormon was written by men, and many people say it is man made, and yet Moroni promises that we all can know by the Holy Ghost whether it is true or not! He goes on to say the same thing that the Bible teaches which is by the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of all things! You are trying to limit what truths that the Holy Ghost can witness of, and there is no scriptural support for that.