The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_Franktalk]

This is just more of agree with me and my interpretations, yet your interpretations don't fit reality very well.

What I say does not fit your reality. Your reality is made up of your beliefs, things you hold true and things you don't believe. That set of things is vastly different than the set of things I hold to. Where I can see your limited set you can not see mine. Because the expanded set of things requires different eyes and different ears to see and experience an expanded reality. It truly is amazing how the person with the blinders on feels so sure that he has no blinders. This is just more evidence on the spiritual path. I hope that one day you will see.

[_Themis]

What I say does not fit your reality. Your reality is made up of your beliefs, things you hold true and things you don't believe.

I am willing to change my beliefs and have.

That set of things is vastly different than the set of things I hold to. Where I can see your limited set you can not see mine.

I know you believe this.

Because the expanded set of things requires different eyes and different ears to see and experience an expanded reality.

Which expanded reality. Yours, or all the others from those who interpret their experiences differently then you?

It truly is amazing how the person with the blinders on feels so sure that he has no blinders. This is just more evidence on the spiritual path. I hope that one day you will see.

Sometimes we have to check to see if we have blinders on. I have had to take them off before. I suspect you have had yours on so long you never think to check for them.

[_sheryl]

We haven't even determined there is some divine being communicating to us. It is more reasonable that it is our own bodies and possibility the environment involved in the spiritual experiences. That we get so many different idea about it supports this idea. People provide their own interpretation or borrow ones they may get from others. It's funny to see you and frank and gd. I can tell you have different ideas of what you think the spirit is telling you. I have learned enough to know that from my own. This is why it is very unwise to ignore the physical when it shows evidence against our interpretations of the spiritual. The spiritual because they are interpretations, tend to be wrong very often, especially when dealings with objective truth claims. This is why it is more wise to be skeptical, but I do think the spiritual experiences are an important part of life.

Hi Themis!

Yes! We are each at a different place in our journey, at differing levels of awakening to our true self, and so we each have different 'experiences'. For some of us, all our experiencing/perceiving seems grounded in the physical - where all things appear explainable by the immediate physical reality - our bodies or our environment around us.

But some of has have been experiencing things that are so beyond the body and the environment around us, that something else is needed to explain them. And some of us have experienced things that are so obviously beyond the physical that we know without doubt that something else is at work, that something else exists within and beyond the physical.

And so when you say 'we' haven't even determined if a divine being is talking to us, this does not include everyone! Yes, there are many who have not determined if a divine being is talking to us, because they have had no personal experience to indicate, or from which they can indicate, that such is occurring, but there are some of us who know without a doubt that something beyond the physical is interacting with us.

Now what the something is, we have to look to the Masters to determine. Yes, it is something that can be experienced personally, but it is also something that can be experienced impersonally, so that all religious thought on this something have some validity.

I have to ask you, Themis, if you witnessed a body of water parting, how would you explain it? If you witnessed a fire ball descending out of heaven and lighting a bunch of wood on fire, how would you explain it? If you experienced your self in something different than the physical, where you interacted with beings that were not of the physical, who showed you things unimaginable by yourself, by anyone, how would you explain it?

And if you witnessed someone chanting and worshiping, and watched light descend upon them and swirl around them and by their direction, move out into the physical world how would you explain it? Or what if you were taken deep within yourself, and saw yourself as you never imagined, as celestial spheres, whole universes, a multiplicity of beings - all well beyond your imagination, and then came back into this world with the ability to see into others' minds and hearts, and able to heal them, how would you explain it?

If you were told in a dream that a disaster was coming and you had to go somewhere to be safe, and while gone a tornado ripped through your house and destroyed everything, how would you explain it?

What I am offering is that all the experiences of Apostles and Prophets as told in the Bible continue to happen today. But just as then, when only a very few were aware of such experiences, only a very few witness and are aware of such occurring today.

And so just because a group that you have called 'we' has not had any personal experience of something beyond the physical, does not mean that it does not exist.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_sheryl]

Sheryl,

That was an excellent answer to a very difficult question. Knowing how few will actually take that path I think God will accept all who make it and give them what they desire as He did with Elisha. The small number will not interfere with any of the plans He has for the rest of us.

Frank

Yes, desire is key, friend.

What do we desire? How passionate is our desire, meaning how much energy is behind it, propelling it?

This determines what we receive. Because often to receive from God we must be prepared, purified, confess and repent, and if we do not wish to do this are not willing to do this, to become empty, then God cannot give of himself to us. And so if we think that we desire to know God, and nothing has occurred, the reason just might be because we lack sufficient desire, to which God can respond. Or that we are not willing to walk the purification that he sets before us.

(God never forces Him Self upon us, but only gives of Him Self according to our desire and to our ability to receive.)

Our strongest desire is perhaps for something else - perhaps our desire to not know God, or our fear of God, or our desire for there to be no God, or our desire for that which is an obstacle to knowing God, perhaps even our desire to remain in the delusion of lack or unworthiness, is stronger than our desire to know God, to receive of the Holy Spirit.

And then what spurs our desire, or what do we do if we are passionate? Engaging in what is necessary to get our desire met, yes? In this case, that is obeying Jesus' commandments - which is what leads to our purification. If we do not desire God enough to obey what Jesus commanded then our desire for God is insufficient and will not be met.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_gdemetz]

Sheryl the true prophets and apostles of the higher way that you mentioned are the heads of the church!

[_Themis]

Hi Themis!

Yes! We are each at a different place in our journey, at differing levels of awakening to our true self, and so we each have different 'experiences'.

Or everyone is just on different paths or interpretations based on how they want to see it.

For some of us, all our experiencing/perceiving seems grounded in the physical - where all things appear explainable by the immediate physical reality - our bodies or our environment around us.

You haven't really established that is more then your mind and environment.

But some of has have been experiencing things that are so beyond the body and the environment around us, that something else is needed to explain them. And some of us have experienced things that are so obviously beyond the physical that we know without doubt that something else is at work, that something else exists within and beyond the physical.

I may have a different view of what the physical is then you. Also no one has any idea of what the mind is capable of producing. In fact it can produce experiences that might surprise many.

And so when you say 'we' haven't even determined if a divine being is talking to us, this does not include everyone! Yes, there are many who have not determined if a divine being is talking to us, because they have had no personal experience to indicate, or from which they can indicate, that such is occurring, but there are some of us who know without a doubt that something beyond the physical is interacting with us.

People who have no doubts are wrong all the time, but they had no doubts.

Now what the something is, we have to look to the Masters to determine. Yes, it is something that can be experienced personally, but it is also something that can be experienced impersonally, so that all religious thought on this something have some validity.

This happens with all different religions or even non-religious, but they don't agree very much. Now I am fine with it and I look to see if they can provide any real insights that other groups cannot. I have not seen any yet from you, but feel free to provide what you think is so enlightening.

I have to ask you, Themis, if you witnessed a body of water parting, how would you explain it? If you witnessed a fire ball descending out of heaven and lighting a bunch of wood on fire, how would you explain it? If you experienced your self in something different than the physical, where you interacted with beings that were not of the physical, who showed you things unimaginable by yourself, by anyone, how would you explain it?

It would depend on the experience No. What you describe sounds like a few Bible passages which have no real chance of being accurate as to what wee read. This should be expected looking at how long ago they were to have happened and that we have no first hand accounts. Now I would entertain hallucinations, dreams, etc. This is fairly common with people. How many believe they have been abducted by aliens, while others will believe it was demons. Depends a lot on their world views.

And if you witnessed someone chanting and worshiping, and watched light descend upon them and swirl around them and by their direction, move out into the physical world how would you explain it? Or what if you were taken deep within yourself, and saw yourself as you never imagined, as celestial spheres, whole universes, a multiplicity of beings - all well beyond your imagination, and then came back into this world with the ability to see into others' minds and hearts, and able to heal them, how would you explain it?

Again it depends on the experience, but you have not described anything yet beyond the capabilities of the mind or environment. In fact these experiences can and are interpreted so many different ways depending on each persons views and view points. You might want to study up a bit on how these things can be seen and interpreted even by groups. They really are very good possibilities even if they are not as exciting.

If you were told in a dream that a disaster was coming and you had to go somewhere to be safe, and while gone a tornado ripped through your house and destroyed everything, how would you explain it?

Again it depends, but I am not against people getting promptings that may be their body and mind seeing things subconsciously that you may not recognize consciously. Also memory has a tendency to get changed even while the event is happening. Maybe it's God, maybe it's some cosmic consciousness, but I won;'t dismiss the mundane just becuase it is not as exciting. Again there are many logical explanations if you study up on it more.

What I am offering is that all the experiences of Apostles and Prophets as told in the Bible continue to happen today. But just as then, when only a very few were aware of such experiences, only a very few witness and are aware of such occurring today.

The stories on the Bible have as much chance of being accurate as any of the other ancient stories, and yes people do have unusual experiences that they cannot explain, and many just interpret it the way they like.

And so just because a group that you have called 'we' has not had any personal experience of something beyond the physical, does not mean that it does not exist.

I never said I hadn't, although again I think we might have different ideas about the physical.

[_Themis]

Sheryl,

That was an excellent answer to a very difficult question. Knowing how few will actually take that path I think God will accept all who make it and give them what they desire as He did with Elisha. The small number will not interfere with any of the plans He has for the rest of us.

Frank

Yes, desire is key, friend.

What do we desire? How passionate is our desire, meaning how much energy is behind it, propelling it?

This determines what we receive. Because often to receive from God we must be prepared, purified, confess and repent, and if we do not wish to do this are not willing to do this, to become empty, then God cannot give of himself to us. And so if we think that we desire to know God, and nothing has occurred, the reason just might be because we lack sufficient desire, to which God can respond. Or that we are not willing to walk the purification that he sets before us.

(God never forces Him Self upon us, but only gives of Him Self according to our desire and to our ability to receive.)

Our strongest desire is perhaps for something else - perhaps our desire to not know God, or our fear of God, or our desire for there to be no God, or our desire for that which is an obstacle to knowing God, perhaps even our desire to remain in the delusion of lack or unworthiness, is stronger than our desire to know God, to receive of the Holy Spirit.

And then what spurs our desire, or what do we do if we are passionate? Engaging in what is necessary to get our desire met, yes? In this case, that is obeying Jesus' commandments - which is what leads to our purification. If we do not desire God enough to obey what Jesus commanded then our desire for God is insufficient and will not be met.

Shalom!

Sheryl

Whats interesting is that if the mind is creating the experience, and it can create ones many would think impossible, it needs this desire and passion in order to better be able to create the experience. Now other factors can be a great help like drugs, but also some very common ones like fasting, sleep deprivation, stress, etc. Interesting that fasting is part of many religious traditions in seeking these experiences. Lack of food or water is a great way to help facilitate these kind of experiences. Now I think these experiences can be important, I just more careful now as to not creating interpretations to much and certainly not if they disagree with more accurate physical evidence.

[_Themis]

Sheryl the true prophets and apostles of the higher way that you mentioned are the heads of the church!

You mean the FLDS right?

[_sheryl]

Sheryl the true prophets and apostles of the higher way that you mentioned are the heads of the church!

Hi gdemetz -

I am happy that you have found something or someone you trust, that you have faith in. The Mormon Church feels to be a good place for you.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_sheryl]

Or everyone is just on different paths or interpretations based on how they want to see it.

Hi Themis!

Perhaps we can say that everyone sees what they are able to see, and so is on the path and interprets as they are able.

If we trust God, don't you think we would trust his plan for each person? Yes, I think we can make choices to speed up or quicken our journey to salvation, but we are all on the same path, just at different places. One life is just a glimpse of this journey.

You haven't really established that is more then your mind and environment.

Again, established for whom? I personally know thousands for whom it has been established. Most do not come and post on boards such as this for they have learned that it is not we who establish anything for any one, but the Holy Spirit, when the soul is ready and willing. And when the soul is ready, the Holy Spirit will lead them to those for whom it has likewise been established.

I may have a different view of what the physical is then you. Also no one has any idea of what the mind is capable of producing. In fact it can produce experiences that might surprise many.

Yes, the body can produce things that are way cool, but even cooler, the body can receive or be opened up to things beyond its imagination. It is like our journey into matter. We keep going deeper and deeper as we advance in our ability to detect smaller and smaller elements that make up matter. What I call spiritual is going deeper still and with our inner sight being able to see what is behind this microscopic world that humanity can now detect.

I heard an awe inspiring analogy yesterday. When the Apollo mission began to send back to us pictures of earth taken from space, and the view of space from somewhere beyond our backyards, were we not all awestruck? When we saw the images of the sun shining upon the earth? As our perspective was expanded what we were able to see and feel likewise expanded.

What is beyond matter itself is even more awe inspiring. If you could only see what we are made of, what is beyond this matter that we can now detect, if you could see the places from which our will, our wisdom, our understanding, our knowledge, or feelings and thoughts arise, your life would be changed forever. Something completely new would be established. See this is where 'God' is, not in the infinite physical, but the infinite within and behind the infinite physical.

Just wait till it is revealed to you!

People who have no doubts are wrong all the time, but they had no doubts.

We are all wrong all the time. Not only because we do not see and know, but because what can be seen and known as it is manifested in this world, changes constantly. This is because our God is living, Christ is living, meaning growing, evolving through its creation. And so what any of us thought true yesterday, today it has advanced to more, and if we do not advance along with it, we will be wrong.

This is what makes existence so exciting! The continual advancing or moving forward!

This happens with all different religions or even non-religious, but they don't agree very much. Now I am fine with it and I look to see if they can provide any real insights that other groups cannot. I have not seen any yet from you, but feel free to provide what you think is so enlightening.

At the level of the Masters, all religions agree perfectly, for they know that Truth manifests and expresses itself in different ways, or what appears different ways on the surface, or in the physical. It is like food. We have mexican, italian, chinese, etc, it all appears and tastes differently according to cultures and traditions, but it is all food.

It would depend on the experience No. What you describe sounds like a few Bible passages which have no real chance of being accurate as to what wee read. This should be expected looking at how long ago they were to have happened and that we have no first hand accounts. Now I would entertain hallucinations, dreams, etc. This is fairly common with people. How many believe they have been abducted by aliens, while others will believe it was demons. Depends a lot on their world views.

Yes, we can say that somethings are delusions or distortions, but because people are certain that something happened to them, something did happen, though they may not be interpreting it clearly.

But you have answered my question, thank you. If I might paraphrase, if you experienced something appearing miraculous, you would assume that something is wrong with your brain?

Again it depends on the experience, but you have not described anything yet beyond the capabilities of the mind or environment. In fact these experiences can and are interpreted so many different ways depending on each persons views and view points. You might want to study up a bit on how these things can be seen and interpreted even by groups. They really are very good possibilities even if they are not as exciting.

Yes, we all interpret according to where we are - our own personal experiencing up to that point. My question as, to adjust if from what you have offered, who are these people who experience incredible things such as this and conclude that these experiences were caused by a malfunction of the brain (if they were not on drugs)? Are are you speaking of conclusions reached by those outside of the experience?

Again it depends, but I am not against people getting promptings that may be their body and mind seeing things subconsciously that you may not recognize consciously. Also memory has a tendency to get changed even while the event is happening. Maybe it's God, maybe it's some cosmic consciousness, but I won;'t dismiss the mundane just becuase it is not as exciting. Again there are many logical explanations if you study up on it more.

We do not separate the mundane from the spiritual. Often times the spiritual speaks through what appears mundane. See above in what is define as 'spiritual'. It is what is behind the smaller matter that we can detect, so that the spiritual is within and behind the mundane, it is what is compelling and sustaining the physical. So all things that occur in the mundane or physical, have their source in the spiritual. Those who have awakened are able to see the connection and see the flow from inner to outer, from spiritual to mundane.

The stories on the Bible have as much chance of being accurate as any of the other ancient stories, and yes people do have unusual experiences that they cannot explain, and many just interpret it the way they like.

Again, or interpret according to their ability, or where they are in their journey. And yes, the greatest spiritual encounters only happened to a few back than, and still only a few, compared to the greater population, experience them now. By spiritual experience, I mean being able to see into and beyond the mundane.

With initial experiences, the experiencer typical does not understand, and so will 'misinterpret' the experience. It is common, but does not negate the experience, or the opening up of interior sensors.

I never said I hadn't, although again I think we might have different ideas about the physical.

I would enjoy hearing about your ideas.

Shalom!

Sheryl