Jefferson Tells the Truth

[_Albion]

The reality is, gdemetz, that these writers know no more about the practice and the extent of it than you do. To take these comments and to extend them as to somehow showing that the practice was extent throughout the early church is a dishonest conclusion designed to fit the heretical thinking of Joseph Smith. As I have mentioned, Paul was not even talking about baptism when he made what at best can be described as only a passing comment about some (they) who practiced such baptism. I suppose that when you start from the premise that the Bible is only accurate "in so far as it is translated correctly" anything can be added, which is exactly what Mormonism does. The various churches to whom Paul wrote were often rife with false teaching and practice, part of the reason Paul wrote his letters in the first place. I find, too, that Mormons often derive "proof texts" from passages that generally have nothing to do with the subject they are trying to prove. This passage is a case in point.

[_gdemetz]

Hogwash, Albion! Those scholars are familiar with the history of the primitive church! It's you, as usual, who don't know what you are talking about! This was a common Christian practice, and it was even being practiced in the 4th century AD! If it were not, why then would the council of Carthage have issued a ban against it?! Hello? Have you heard of "born of the water and Spirit?" I don't know any nice way to say it Albion. You are just an ignorant evangelical.

[_Albion]

I suppose to you they are familiar and reliable on the history of the early church in so far as they agree with the Mormon version of early history. Since you find such sources reliable how about checking out carm.org/baptismforthe dead. I think they clearly emphasize that there was a group near Corinth practicing this occult based pagan procedure but it is doubtful it was the Christian church in Corinth. I have not read the details of the early Church council that you mention as stopping the practice but I suspect that a reading of the actual notes of the council (rather than simply quoting them from your source without verification from actual records) would probably indicate that it was a measure to stamp out any vestige of pagan practice rather than some nefarious attempt to change general church practice. Do you have notes from this early church council? Practices for and on behalf of the dead have no place in Christian worship and more properly belong in the occult from which they derived.

[_gdemetz]

It disgusts me when you use that cheap little source to contradict the many scholars who contribute to the world famous "The Interpreters Bible!" Does that cheap little source state that the early church did alter calls? You also mentioned previously the occasional laying on of hands, which is also incorrect. The apostles always laid their hands on a person after they were baptized to bestow the gift of the Holy ghost. Once again, your ignorance is showing. That is a necessary part of the regeneration of the water and the spirit; baptism (water) and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (spirit). These are essential requirements of being born again, and one must be born again in order to have eternal life as Christ stated. This is why the gospel was preached to the dead, and that is why those ordinances were performed for the dead!

[_Albion]

As I said, gdemetz, any "apostate" source when it appears to give a weak lifeline to Mormon claims but it's a "cheap little source" when it doesn't. Since you no doubt didn't even bother to read the CARM page it did acknowledge that "baptism for the dead" was practiced by a group in the Corinth locale but clearly from the way the original Greek wording attributed to Paul is given he was not referring to the Church he founded there. The Interpreter's Bible does not say that the Corinthian Church founded by Paul practiced this occultic rite only that it was done in Corinth which is not under dispute. To assume that an ancient church council ruled baptism for the dead as a change in full church practice is a major leap on your part. Such councils were usually convened to codify accepted practice and to rule against unchristian practices that were infiltrating the church as it grew and enveloped various cultures and practices in the region. Baptism for the dead is a purely pagan and occultic practice fully in keeping with the signs of the occult that decorate many Mormon temples. I'll remind you of that "cheap little source' quote next time you quote FAIR lol.

[_gdemetz]

This is not a major leap on my part. This is primitive church history as the best Biblical scholars are aware of! Baptism for the dead was widely practiced among Christians even after the days of the apostles which led to the council of Carthage's ban. They weren't banning some pagan religions practices! The educated scholars know that. However, those who believe in New Testament alter calls have no idea!

[_Albion]

I don' really want to continue this discussion on the issue of "baptism for the dead but I cannot resist asking for the name of these Biblical "scholars" who support the practice. Just a short list will do giving their names and credentials.

[_gdemetz]

The Interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who contribute to it, however, I have not found a listing of their names. However, these are not the only scholars who have researched the evidence and found this out. Others are:

Michael F. Hull, professor in Biblical theology at St. Joseph's seminary, who has written a book entitled, "Baptism on Account of the Dead" ($192.00 - I can't afford that.)

Dr. Evert Ferguson, distinguished scholar and professor of church history emeritus at Abilene Christian University

Also, renown Mormon scholar and professor, Hugh Nibley, quotes the Pastor of Hermos, one of the most trustworthy sources of the teachings of the early church in regards to baptism for the dead in his writings concerning the same.

One thing that I have noticed is that some shallow resources, which refer to the Mormons as a cult, etc., quote the Bible, and give their own interpretation to it (which stinks!) in order to make their feeble points, as if they could change history or the truth!

[_Albion]

There are various interpretations of the word cult , some more judgmental than others. I think the vast majority of people, certainly within the "religious" community, would firmly place Mormonism alongside JWs, Moonies and Scientologists as modern cults. How do you define the word, gdemetz, and why do you place Mormonism outside any definition?

[_gdemetz]

The word cult has several meanings to me. Non Christians could refer to a Christian sect as a cult or sect of Christianity. However, the main meaning in which it is commonly used is a derogatory term about a Christian faith which does not measure up to one's personal opinion of what a Christian faith should teach or believe. However, in my view, when someone refers to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a cult, then it rings of shallow ignorance to me sense a much deeper look, as I have pointed out, clearly shows that the LDS beliefs are very much in harmony with the beliefs espoused in the New Testament.