Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_Investigator]

1854 was three years before the MMM, was this a fulfilled prophecy?

Col. William H. Dame, the ranking officer in southern Utah who ordered the Mountain Meadows massacre, received a patriarchal blessing in 1854 that he would "be called to act at the head of a portion of thy Brethren and of the Lamanites (Native Americans) in the redemption of Zion and the avenging of the blood of the prophets upon them that dwell on the earth". See Patriarchal blessing of William H. Dame, February 20, 1854, in Harold W. Pease, "The Life and Works of William Horne Dame", M.A. thesis, BYU, 1971, pp. 64–66. In June 1857, Philip Klingensmith, another participant, was similarly blessed that he would participate in "avenging the blood of Brother Joseph". See Patriarchal blessing of Philip Klingensmith, Anna Jean Backus, Mountain Meadows Witness: The Life and Times of Bishop Philip Klingensmith (Spokane: Arthur H. Clark Co., 1995), pp. 118, 124; Salt Lake Cutoff and the California Trail; Spanish Trail Cut a Roundabout Path Through Utah; Scott 1877.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

[_Franktalk]

Not sure what you are getting at. Moses prophesied about Assyria taking away the northern tribes of Israel. So what. Are you saying there is some kind of moral approval going on here? If indeed this did happen as you say then the attitude of the people involved was predicted. All this points out is the Holy Ghost was working in the blessing and a future event was in the vision. Is there a point to your post?

[_Albion]

Why do I find it outrageous that there's even a a hint of a suggestion in the originating post that there was somehow a godly purpose in this mass murder of innocents?

[_Investigator]

Not sure what you are getting at. Moses prophesied about Assyria taking away the northern tribes of Israel. So what. Are you saying there is some kind of moral approval going on here? If indeed this did happen as you say then the attitude of the people involved was predicted. All this points out is the Holy Ghost was working in the blessing and a future event was in the vision. Is there a point to your post?

The purpose of a question is to get an answer (not to make a point.)

I was wondering whether the sources quoted here are reliable, and whether these patriarchal blessings were actually given when indicated (or whether they could be post-dated somehow?)

As to the point of whether these blessings imply any Divine approval (which you raised here), the words "called to act at the head of a portion of thy Brethren and of the Lamanites in the redemption of Zion and the avenging of the blood of the prophets upon them that dwell on the earth," and "avenging the blood of Brother Joseph" do seem to suggest that.

Why do I find it outrageous that there's even a a hint of a suggestion in the originating post that there was somehow a godly purpose in this mass murder of innocents?

Maybe it's because you're politically correct, and haven't thought it through.

Have you considered these questions?

1.) Were any children under the age of accountability killed?

2.) As the giver of life, isn't it God's prerogative to take it when and how He chooses?

3.) Isn't it possible that the adults were a part of the mob that killed Joseph and Hyram?

4.) Didn't God say something somewhere (in D&C, I believe) about holding them accountable for their blood unto the third or fourth generation unless they repented?

Whatever your thoughts and opinions on these side issues (and the side issue of Divine approval), all I'm really interested in here is whether the patriarchal blessings cited in the Wikipedia article are genuine.

Thank you.

[_Franktalk]

You have to be real careful with prophecy. It may have just prophesied the mental state of the person and has nothing to do with how God views the events. Most prophecies have wiggle room in them to be interpreted widely. This is done on purpose. We are to live by faith not by fact of evidence. Unless one has spiritual discernment granted by God we can't know for sure what the interpretation is. Much of prophecy can be a stumbling block. Many read into a prophecy what they already believe to be true. Whether it is true or not.

In the big picture the violent actions against the church stopped. How much of this was due to the events around MMM. Was the consciousness of many people who performed the acts against the LDS raised by these events? Maybe a big picture view of the prophecy is in order.

I have not studied these events so I can't answer your questions. I am busy with other studies.

[_Albion]

Inquiringmind, since none of the points you raise have any relevancy outside the bogus claims of Mormonism, I am appalled at your attempt to justify in any way the willful terrorist act that was the MMM . Even within Mormon thinking I am appalled at your justification attempts. The MMM was a murderous act by evil men who escaped the earthly consequences of their acts simply because of the self preservation instincts of the group that spawned their thinking. I believe they will not have that luxury at the bar of God's judgement seat.

[_Investigator]

Inquiringmind, since none of the points you raise have any relevancy outside the bogus claims of Mormonism, I am appalled at your attempt to justify in any way the willful terrorist act that was the MMM . Even within Mormon thinking I am appalled at your justification attempts. The MMM was a murderous act by evil men who escaped the earthly consequences of their acts simply because of the self preservation instincts of the group that spawned their thinking. I believe they will not have that luxury at the bar of God's judgement seat.

I'm not trying to justify anything.

I'm just trying to find out if the patriarchal blessings cited are historically accurate.

As to the claims of Mormonism, I'm interested in evidence, not your opinion (and the question of whether these patriarchal blessings constitute fulfilled prophecies could have a direct bearing on whether or not the claims of Mormonism are bogus.)

[_Investigator]

You have to be real careful with prophecy. It may have just prophesied the mental state of the person and has nothing to do with how God views the events. Most prophecies have wiggle room in them to be interpreted widely. This is done on purpose. We are to live by faith not by fact of evidence. Unless one has spiritual discernment granted by God we can't know for sure what the interpretation is. Much of prophecy can be a stumbling block. Many read into a prophecy what they already believe to be true. Whether it is true or not.

In the big picture the violent actions against the church stopped. How much of this was due to the events around MMM. Was the consciousness of many people who performed the acts against the LDS raised by these events? Maybe a big picture view of the prophecy is in order.

I have not studied these events so I can't answer your questions. I am busy with other studies.

Thank you.

[_Albion]

Sounds like justification to me...started in your opening thread and then even more justified in your followup post to me. Are you prepared to condemn the murderers responsible for the MMM?

[_Investigator]

Sounds like justification to me...started in your opening thread and then even more justified in your followup post to me. Are you prepared to condemn the murderers responsible for the MMM?

Are you prepared to accuse Joshua the son of Nun, and the armies that followed him, of being murders?

I'm not a Mormon, but I know my Old Testament, I'm interested in investigating the claims of the Church, and I don't appreciate your attempts to derail this thread.

The topic here is whether the patriarchal blessings mentioned in the OP genuinely predate the MMM, and whether they could in fact be fulfilled prophecies.

(And if they are fulfilled prophecies, given by God, I'm no more prepared to accuse Col. Dame or Phillip Klingensmith of being murders than I'd be prepared to bring such a charge against Joshua and his troops.)