Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?

[_Themis]

I have explored all sides, Themis, and your side does not make much sense to me!

You give yourself away here. I don't have a side, and if I did it was the LDS side. I am only interested in the truth.

You obviously believe that it was some great conspiracy between Joseph and at least eleven other witnesses who certainly could have found something better to do!

What is obvious is your lack of of knowledge. I don't think most of these 11 men were involved. I think Oliver may have been. His father and brother may have as well. Family tends to be the most loyal, and they were part of some early treasure seeking magic.

All of the three witnesses left the church and one never came back after he was persecuted by church members, but he was adamant in his testimony until the day he died!

I think most were not apart of any conspiracy. Joseph was already skilled in these areas to create an experience they would believe. This is what treasure seeking with a stone in a hat is all about, but I suspect you don't know much about that subject. Martin was easily swayed. I am not aware that he denied his testimonies of Quakerism. AS to the 8 Joseph may have created a prop. The kinderhook plates were a very good hoax.

by the way even if one is involved why would they want to out themselves if they don't have to.

[_Themis]

You can have Heckle, Jeckle, and the other bird check out http://www.BookofMormonEvidence.org. They list some there. If you read a lot of that, it becomes apparent the someone who hasn't finished grade three couldn't have come up with such an obviously fantastic elaborate hoax of that magnitude!

What piece of evidence on that site do you find the most compelling?

Bumpy bump.

[_gdemetz]

Oh Themis, so you don't think all were involved?!? If some weren't involved, why do you think they signed states validating the plates existence?!?

[_Drifting]

Oh Themis, so you don't think all were involved?!? If some weren't involved, why do you think they signed states validating the plates existence?!?

Signed? Where are their signatures?

Plus the above bumpety bump...

[_ludwigm]

Time to time, I should watch that gdemetz guy's ...ehm... productions, because YOU (plural) quote him. Please don't do it!

As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Please don't bump for him. He will never answer any question.

Even bumpety bump doesn't help.

[_gdemetz]

I don't have much time for these stupid posts! Drifting you have got to be kidding me! Here's a quote from a hostile source ("Notes Written on Chambers Life of Joseph Smith"):

"The plates from which Smith, the author translates his book are said to be in his possession. Ten persons say they have seen them and hefted them. Three declare that an angel of God appeared to them and showed them to them, and told them that God had given Smith power to be able to read them, understand them, and translate them. THE NAMES OF THOSE PERSONS ARE SIGNED TO THE CERTIFICATES IN THE BOOK."

This is the topic I want!!!

[Guest]

with apologies to Ludders...

I don't have much time for these stupid posts! Drifting you have got to be kidding me! Here's a quote from a hostile source ("Notes Written on Chambers Life of Joseph Smith"):

"The plates from which Smith, the author translates his book are said to be in his possession. Ten persons say they have seen them and hefted them. Three declare that an angel of God appeared to them and showed them to them, and told them that God had given Smith power to be able to read them, understand them, and translate them. THE NAMES OF THOSE PERSONS ARE SIGNED TO THE CERTIFICATES IN THE BOOK."

This is the topic I want!!!

I notice you haven't told us where we can find the signatures...

From what I understand we do not have a copy of the testimony with the witnesses signature. I think many have reasoned that Joseph Smith wrote the witness statement. Then we also have the church changing the words on the statement that the witnesses supposedly testified to.

It does make you wonder.

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

It is interesting to note that even the signed statement by the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon has been altered. In the 1830 edition (last page) it read:
"... that Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates ... "
In the 1964 edition it reads:
"... That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates ... "

[_Drifting]

You can have Heckle, Jeckle, and the other bird check out http://www.BookofMormonEvidence.org. They list some there. If you read a lot of that, it becomes apparent the someone who hasn't finished grade three couldn't have come up with such an obviously fantastic elaborate hoax of that magnitude!

What piece of evidence on that site do you find the most compelling?

Bump diddly bump bump.... Bump bump

[_Themis]

Bump diddly bump bump.... Bump bump

ludwigm is right that gd will not answer. He likes to assert only.

[_Themis]

I don't have much time for these stupid posts! Drifting you have got to be kidding me! Here's a quote from a hostile source ("Notes Written on Chambers Life of Joseph Smith"):

"The plates from which Smith, the author translates his book are said to be in his possession. Ten persons say they have seen them and hefted them. Three declare that an angel of God appeared to them and showed them to them, and told them that God had given Smith power to be able to read them, understand them, and translate them. THE NAMES OF THOSE PERSONS ARE SIGNED TO THE CERTIFICATES IN THE BOOK."

This is the topic I want!!!

You provide a third party statement to support support that the 8 or 3 signed anything. Sorry that does not cut it. You really are ignorant. Now I am not saying events didn't happen with the 3(2 and 1) or the 8(4 and 4). I bet you don't understand what I am getting at with the 2 and 1 or 4 and 4. The problem is we don't have any signed documents for the statements in the Book of Mormon so they are not evidence that Joseph had plates. WE can read an number of other statements made by the 11 or others who knew them but this only helps to confuse what really happened. Some suggest it it was spiritual in nature only. I have said this before, but God would have to have been pretty stupid on this one not to get these men to all sign not just a group statement, but also write and sign their own witness in their own words of what happened.