gdemetz wrote:I don't have much time for these stupid posts! Drifting you have got to be kidding me! Here's a quote from a hostile source ("Notes Written on Chambers Life of Joseph Smith"):
"The plates from which Smith, the author translates his book are said to be in his possession. Ten persons say they have seen them and hefted them. Three declare that an angel of God appeared to them and showed them to them, and told them that God had given Smith power to be able to read them, understand them, and translate them. THE NAMES OF THOSE PERSONS ARE SIGNED TO THE CERTIFICATES IN THE BOOK."
This is the topic I want!!!
You provide a third party statement to support support that the 8 or 3 signed anything. Sorry that does not cut it. You really are ignorant. Now I am not saying events didn't happen with the 3(2 and 1) or the 8(4 and 4). I bet you don't understand what I am getting at with the 2 and 1 or 4 and 4. The problem is we don't have any signed documents for the statements in the Book of Mormon so they are not evidence that Joseph had plates. WE can read an number of other statements made by the 11 or others who knew them but this only helps to confuse what really happened. Some suggest it it was spiritual in nature only. I have said this before, but God would have to have been pretty stupid on this one not to get these men to all sign not just a group statement, but also write and sign their own witness in their own words of what happened.
Interestingly the claimed witness statements were changed post production....
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Is there any other history that you would like to change or alter?! Perhaps you want another source! Since all the witnesses are dead now, I guess we would just necessarily have to settle for a third party source, how dumb!!!
gdemetz wrote:Is there any other history that you would like to change or alter?! Perhaps you want another source! Since all the witnesses are dead now, I guess we would just necessarily have to settle for a third party source, how dumb!!!
We are not changing history, but showing you what you don't get. The statements in the Book of Mormon are not signed statements from either the 3 or 8. As such we don't have good detail what may have happened, especially when we take all historical statements regarding it. Your mistake was providing a third party statement to try and show they were signed. This doesn't work. You didn't even reference it well enough. It really is difficult to have an intelligent conversion with you.
If you would try being intelligent, then perhaps we could have an intelligent conversation! What the heck do you expect? I can't produce the original document! I don't have it in my possession! I can't ask them to come back from the dead and sign your copy of the Book of Mormon! I can only give you refereces that all those witnesses signed it!!!
gdemetz wrote:If you would try being intelligent, then perhaps we could have an intelligent conversation! What the heck do you expect? I can't produce the original document! I don't have it in my possession! I can't ask them to come back from the dead and sign your copy of the Book of Mormon! I can only give you refereces that all those witnesses signed it!!!
Please try and think a little. The issue here is whether there is a signed document. If you think there is then show us. We have been over this on another thread, and no there is not a signed document.
Now you reference this statement
"The plates from which Smith, the author translates his book are said to be in his possession. Ten persons say they have seen them and hefted them. Three declare that an angel of God appeared to them and showed them to them, and told them that God had given Smith power to be able to read them, understand them, and translate them. THE NAMES OF THOSE PERSONS ARE SIGNED TO THE CERTIFICATES IN THE BOOK."
Now when was this statement recorded. You also notice he didn't get the number right.
[insult deleted]! Do you think I can show you a signed document from the 1800's?!? There is no reputable site, even an anti Mormon one that disputes that the witnesses did not sign a document! Furthermore, more importantly, none of the witnesses ever denied their testimonies!!!
gdemetz wrote:[insult deleted]! Do you think I can show you a signed document from the 1800's?!?
No, but then that is the issue.
There is no reputable site, even an anti Mormon one that disputes that the witnesses did not sign a document!
Then why were you the one suggesting they did. Don't get all upset when you said they did and now admit they didn't. That is the issue here. Not about what what may have happened at the events.
Furthermore, more importantly, none of the witnesses ever denied their testimonies!!!
There are a number of statements, some you probably are not aware of since you only go to apologetic sites that make it hard to tell what really happened. The statements found in the Book of Mormon don't help much since they are not signed, so we can't use them to know what these individuals may have agreed to. Whats more important though is all the evidence that shows the Book of Mormon to be a 19th century production.
gdemetz wrote:Oh Themis, so you don't think all were involved?!? If some weren't involved, why do you think they signed states validating the plates existence?!?
gdemetz also wrote:[insult deleted]! Do you think I can show you a signed document from the 1800's?!?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
You guys would really love to change history, but guess what? You can't! The facts remain that:
1- There were three reliable witnesses who saw the angel and the plates and never over the years changed their testimony!
2- There were eight reliable witnesses who saw the plates and never over the years changed their testimony!
3- This makes a total of eleven reliable witnesses who saw the evidence and signed documents which bore that testimony, and makes you look stupid, as usual!
gdemetz wrote:You guys would really love to change history, but guess what? You can't! The facts remain that:
1- There were three reliable witnesses who saw the angel and the plates and never over the years changed their testimony!
2- There were eight reliable witnesses who saw the plates and never over the years changed their testimony!
3- This makes a total of eleven reliable witnesses who saw the evidence and signed documents which bore that testimony, and makes you look stupid, as usual!
You are correct except the part where you say "reliable" and "never over the years changed their testimony".
The testimony printed in today's version of the Book of Mormon is not the same as the one printed in the first edition. Which one is their unchanged testimony?
Some shifted from saying they had seen the plates physically to seeing the plates only spiritually. How is that not a change?
Still waiting for that document that they signed......
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
