gdemetz wrote:You destroyed it only in your mind! People who are not spiritually blind, as Christ states, can not see these things, and the people who are not can! Where do you fit in?! I've seen China, but you haven't so you say it doesn't exist?!?
And yet Columbus thought he was sure, yet was wrong, but gdemetz thinks he cannot be wrong.
First of all, I am not convinced that Columbus was 100% convinced, although that is what he thought since he called them Indians. Secondly, I am not Columbus, perhaps a great man who had not the gift of the Holy Ghost.
gdemetz wrote:First of all, I am not convinced that Columbus was 100% convinced, although that is what he thought since he called them Indians. Secondly, I am not Columbus, perhaps a great man who had not the gift of the Holy Ghost.
He thought he found India, especially since he was wrong about the circumference of the earth, but you still miss the point about being sure and still wrong. You think you can't be wrong yet won't even entertain why you are right.
gdemetz wrote:You destroyed it only in your mind! People who are not spiritually blind, as Christ states, can not see these things, and the people who are not can! Where do you fit in?! I've seen China, but you haven't so you say it doesn't exist?!?
But what if you are the one that is spiritually blind? You don't know that you're not, you only believe that you're not.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
gdemetz wrote:You destroyed it only in your mind! People who are not spiritually blind, as Christ states, can not see these things, and the people who are not can! Where do you fit in?! I've seen China, but you haven't so you say it doesn't exist?!?
But what if you are the one that is spiritually blind? You don't know that you're not, you only believe that you're not.
What's interesting is that members tends to talk about the experiences, and you can also read church material describing the experience, but when it comes to talking to those who may question they clam up. I did the same using the same excuses of words can't describe or the have you ever tasted salt analogy. You would think if they really believe it's the spirit they would want to talk about it, and why they think the body is not capable of producing it. I bet gd and frank don't think tobin really had God show up, but then simply because we don't believe they assume we have never had similar experiences to them.
gdemetz wrote:I can tell; you've never been to China!
Columbus has never been to India. You are still avoiding that one can be certain and still wrong. You don't like this discussion so it's easier to just conclude if others don't have your interpretation they must not have had a similar experience.
As for the search for God I have concluded it is a personal path and one that can't be shared to a point where another can experience what I experience. For those who do not seek God but stand on the side and cast stones at the whole idea that there is a God they feel justified because of the confused state of the seekers. If I did not know there was a God and just used what I could see around me and listened to the talk of those who say they found Him I could easily conclude there is no God. It would be logical to assume that any God who desired to be found would not allow this kind of confused mess. But just where does the mess come from? First of all men who look at the creation and see the power of God know there is one and seek who He is. In this they have already taken on faith that He exist before they start their journey. They may be confused along the way but their path is the correct one. Now for those who do not see the power of God in the creation they have not taken one step towards God. In fact they deny the existence of a God. Instead they seek the creation and the creation blocks their view. No amount of logic or argument will ever turn them from their attachment to the creation. Only a spiritual intervention may turn them. But for some this does not work as well. They misunderstand what happened to them and they chalk it up to a self created desire that they can ignore. After all all things come from the creation to these poor people. For those who see the power of God in the creation we have a complete spectrum of those who detach from the creation all the way to those who keep one foot planted in the creation and refuse to pull it out no matter what. For those that keep one foot in the creation they lose the ability to have the Holy Ghost walk with them and they lose the witness. The Spirit of Christ however may reside in them. But the gifts of God and the promised witness is not of the world and will not reside in the world. So these people sometimes become tired of the quest and fall back to their old friend which they feel is the creation. These are the people who say they fully believed yet received no witness and deny that anyone could receive what they missed. Then on the far end we have those who fully cast off the world. These people are a blank page for God to write on. And based on what He desires these people also appear to the outside world as all over the map. Because God will direct each of us in different ways. Add to this that God never takes away free will and you have a situation that appears undirected. And one more thing which adds to the confusion is the wide range of spiritual gifts. To one God may choose scriptural discernment and another prophecy. And of course many other gifts as well. This will appear as confusion to the outside observer yet taken as a whole body of Christ it is focused and coherent. I see this confused state as fulfillment of scripture and the promises of God. That is because I see it through spiritual eyes. Of course not everyone fully cast off the world so they receive their measure of witness as they are able. Then we have people who wish to raise them self up using God as a ladder. They declare a witness when none was given. So I can see why many laugh at the belief in God. To them it is foolishness just as scripture has declared thousands of year ago.
Does this answer the question of how does one know a witness or not? Of course not. Christ declared the only way to the Father is through Him. No man on earth can do what Christ can do. The belief in Christ is the portal but to fully go there one must leave here. This has always been the problem.
