Themis wrote:One could view it that way, but the evidence suggests it is a sign of fraud.
Everyone wants a sign including LDS and other Christians. It's just physical signs that are supposed to be wrong for some dumb reason. Moroni's promise is encouraging people to seek a sign, even if it is circular reasoning.
James pretty much makes the same promise in the New Testament:
James 1:5 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Both were speaking about spiritual knowledge. The reason seeking for physical signs is frowned upon by God is because He wants us to be spiritually reborn while we are in the flesh. Indeed, if we are not spiritually awakened, we cannot progress in our journey to return to God. If a person will not believe until he feels he has received sufficient physical evidence to warrant his belief, then that belief is not spiritually based; hence that person is not spiritually reborn.
As an aside, Jesus' teaching about spiritual rebirth seems to be a very good indication that we were spiritually "born" before we got to the earth. Otherwise, His teaching would not have been about being "reborn"; but merely about being "born".
If asking God for a sign is wrong why did SWK ask God to give him a sign if the decision to reverse the Priesthood ban was wrong?
If asking God for a sign is wrong why does Moroni implore people to seek a sign in confirmation of the Book of Mormon?
If asking God for a sign is wrong why do you need signs as part of the Temple ceremony?
If asking God for a sign is wrong why do Mormon's think that God gives them lot's of signs e.g. finding car keys etc?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Bond James Bond wrote:This argument is fine for defense against Christians. Does nothing for secular based criticisms of the Book of Mormon.
"secular based criticisms" of the Book of Mormon? I see, so likewise one may levy "theological based criticisms" of the Canfield Ocean? or "theological based criticisms" of the Toba Catastrophe? or "theological based criticisms" of Plate tectonics? or "theological based criticisms" of the Theory of Relativity?
i like your idea of using apples to argue about oranges.......
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
What is puzzling to me is the language of Moroni 10:4. It says: And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are NOT TRUE...." So, presumably the exhortation is not to ask of they are true but to ask if they are NOT TRUE. So....does the sign, if you get one, actually confirm that it is not true? Enquiring minds and all that....
Albion wrote:What is puzzling to me is the language of Moroni 10:4. It says: And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are NOT TRUE...." So, presumably the exhortation is not to ask of they are true but to ask if they are NOT TRUE. So....does the sign, if you get one, actually confirm that it is not true? Enquiring minds and all that....
an important distinction to be sure. Ask most missionaries and they will confirm that they often (mistakenly in my opinion) ask Investigators to ask if things are true. This is an administrative error that should be remedied.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Themis wrote:One could view it that way, but the evidence suggests it is a sign of fraud.
Everyone wants a sign including LDS and other Christians. It's just physical signs that are supposed to be wrong for some dumb reason. Moroni's promise is encouraging people to seek a sign, even if it is circular reasoning.
James pretty much makes the same promise in the New Testament:
James 1:5 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Both were speaking about spiritual knowledge. The reason seeking for physical signs is frowned upon by God is because He wants us to be spiritually reborn while we are in the flesh. Indeed, if we are not spiritually awakened, we cannot progress in our journey to return to God. If a person will not believe until he feels he has received sufficient physical evidence to warrant his belief, then that belief is not spiritually based; hence that person is not spiritually reborn.
As an aside, Jesus' teaching about spiritual rebirth seems to be a very good indication that we were spiritually "born" before we got to the earth. Otherwise, His teaching would not have been about being "reborn"; but merely about being "born".
Blessings,
jo
Interesting that no one can explain why their interpretation must be true and not all those other ones that conflict with theirs. The spiritual is most likely created by our bodies and then interpreted based on how we see the world and what we may want to believe.
Bond James Bond wrote:This argument is fine for defense against Christians. Does nothing for secular based criticisms of the Book of Mormon.
"secular based criticisms" of the Book of Mormon? I see, so likewise one may levy "theological based criticisms" of the Canfield Ocean? or "theological based criticisms" of the Toba Catastrophe? or "theological based criticisms" of Plate tectonics? or "theological based criticisms" of the Theory of Relativity?
i like your idea of using apples to argue about oranges.......
Yes the Book of Mormon makes objective truth claims that can be tested, and they come up very short.
Well, My guess is that if any of the Mormon literature contradicts the Book of Revelation then the Mormons have a serious problem; however, if the book of Revelation was the last book written and written by an Apostile, John may have been placing the closing seal on the Word of God ---- closing God's dissertation with man and that would also be a very serious issue for Mormons.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:Well, My guess is that if any of the Mormon literature in anyway contradicts the Book of Revelation then the Mormons have a serious problem; however, if the book of Revelation was the last book written and written by an Apostile, John may have been placing the closing seal on the Word of God ---- closing God's dissertation with man.
And God stopped speaking to man precisely why? And if that is true, when Jesus returns is he going to be mute?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
