Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_son of Ishmael]

Why would anyone worship a god who asks for the wholesale massacre of innocents?

The only god I know of that would do that would be the temporary god of the earth. That would be Satan. I will not defend that statement. You know that casting pearls thingy.

I don't understand. The Old Testament is full of examples where God commanded the killing of innocents.

[_LittleNipper]

I know the Catholic teaching, but it is absolutely wrong! "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High." Do you know anything that can not become like its progenitors?! "That by these ye might be partakers OF THE DIVINE NATURE." "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne just as I overcame and am sat down with my Father on His throne." It can't be written or explained much simpler than that! We all will become resurrected immortal beings, and can even have authority as a god! "It is my Father's good pleasure TO GIVE YOU THE KINGDOM!!!!!!!

http://www.gotquestions.org/you-are-gods.html
Question: "What does the Bible mean by 'you are gods' / 'ye are gods' in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?"

Answer: Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8.

This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.

The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, `You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority

[_jo1952]

Why would anyone worship a god who asks for the wholesale massacre of innocents?

In Deuteronomy chapter 13, God was giving very specific instructions on who He wants the Hebrews to kill; and for very specific reasons. According to God's own commandments, the ones who were to be killed were not innocent. They were people who were not keeping His commandments, but were trying to undo all that had been accomplished by freeing the Israelites from captivity in Egypt.

We are taught that vengeance belongs to God; this appears to be an occasion when God is commanding mankind (the Israelites) to be the ones who carry out His vengeance. I agree this does seem over-the-top; yet God's purpose seems to be at least two-fold. One, to carry out His vengeance; two, to test His people to see if they would be obedient to this commandment.

Your question is a fair one. It also brought to mind how man will also follow and believe in other men who commit wholesale massacre of innocents - even to the point of attempting to completely exterminate them. How can man do this? Especially when it is man's idea and not God's idea from which these attempts are born?

I find comfort in the higher teachings of the Hebrew Kabbalah wherein knowledge of the reincarnation of souls continues until a soul is able to return to God. Therefore, those whom God commanded be put to physical death lose only their physical body in that particular incarnation. Physical death cannot kill the soul.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Thanks. Do you think Joseph Smith stepped out of those boundaries?

Son of Ishmael,

No, I do not believe that he stepped outside of those boundaries.

Blessings,

jo

[_LittleNipper]

My take is that God is merciful and sees the picture in total. To kill a baby when God commands it is to likely bring that baby to the arms of God. To allow that group of people to exist, grow and spread would only mean that those babies would become even worse than their parents. They would be bound for eternal separation from God and God's people would soon become just like them. It must also be remembered that these people had opportunity to flee the area.
That does not mean that God doesn't hear the prayers of the righteous. Rahab the harlot is an example. She saw that God was on the side of the Hebrews and God provided her with an opportunity to save herself and her entire family. So, God is selective and knows what He is about even when we do not... And no, I do not hold to reincarnation of souls. That idea is founded in a system of human works to gain eternal salvation by trial.

[_son of Ishmael]

You may confuse God with President Monson but I do not.

President Monson speaks for God doesn’t he? . But I will change my question. If God told you to kill all homosexuals would you do it?[/quote]


Bump

[_Franktalk]

President Monson speaks for God doesn’t he? . But I will change my question. If God told you to kill all homosexuals would you do it?

That is like saying if God told you to jump over the moon would you do it. Or say count all of the grains of sand on the earth. Let us stay within the bounds of reasonable questions. Doing what ifs to get a rise out of an audience may get you off but it serves no other purpose.

But let me add that in a past age the Law as given by Moses was to establish guidelines for the newly formed nation of the Jews. In that system of Laws there were some that spoke of forbidden acts that were punishable by death. If I lived then I would carry out the Law. But the Law was to be carried out after a witness brought a complaint. No complaint, no judge, no verdict, no punishment. But what most fail to realize is Laws have levels and some are more important than others. If we all loved our neighbor as we love our self then how many of us would report our self to the judge? Why is it easy to report another but not our self? If we all lived by the second most important commandment then all other Laws are not needed.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Many do not understand what Jesus was saying here.

[_son of Ishmael]

President Monson speaks for God doesn’t he? . But I will change my question. If God told you to kill all homosexuals would you do it?

That is like saying if God told you to jump over the moon would you do it. Or say count all of the grains of sand on the earth. Let us stay within the bounds of reasonable questions. Doing what ifs to get a rise out of an audience may get you off but it serves no other purpose.

But let me add that in a past age the Law as given by Moses was to establish guidelines for the newly formed nation of the Jews. In that system of Laws there were some that spoke of forbidden acts that were punishable by death. If I lived then I would carry out the Law. But the Law was to be carried out after a witness brought a complaint. No complaint, no judge, no verdict, no punishment. But what most fail to realize is Laws have levels and some are more important than others. If we all loved our neighbor as we love our self then how many of us would report our self to the judge? Why is it easy to report another but not our self? If we all lived by the second most important commandment then all other Laws are not needed.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Many do not understand what Jesus was saying here.

Lucky us that we did not live in the Old Testament times I guess.

[_madeleine]

It is true that not all of sacred scripture was canonized. Therefore, we do not have everything which was considered Sacred Tradition in our Bibles.

What authority canonized scripture, and if you believe they failed, why do you believe they succeeded, i.e., why use the Bible at all?

That reminds me, can you explain to me why the Catechisms delete the second of the Ten Commandments, and then split the tenth commandment into two separate commandments in order to keep the same number of ten commandments?

What? Lol. I had to google that one. here you go....

http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/bobs10c.html

Okay, back to responding to your comments..... The Hebrews did not write down a great deal of their sacred oral traditions until after Christianity was established. One example is the Kabbalah. Before the Kabbalah was written, few Jews were taught the esoteric doctrines contained in this tradition. Only the learned and those who have gained a spiritual perception of their beliefs are taught from the Kabbalah. Within the Zohar, which is part of the Kabbalah, you can find the following quote:

"The souls must re-enter the Absolute, from whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this end they must develop the perfections; the germ of which is planted in them. And if they have not developed these traits in this one life, then they must commence another, a third, and so forth. They must go on like this until they acquire the condition that allows them to associate again with God."

Gives you some idea about the Kabbalah then, doesn't it.

As you can see, the Jews had secret teachings which were not taught to everyone.

No, a group of people claiming secret knowledge arose separately.

Also, the above quote indicates that this portion of the secret knowledge was a belief in reincarnation. There are sections in the New Testament which allude to the Apostles and the Pharisees having this same knowledge, which Jesus never corrected anyone on. Yet the RCC does not believe in reincarnation; in fact, you cannot find a section for reincarnation in the Catholic Encyclopedia which explains why the RCC does not believe in it. When books and epistles were being considered for canonization, the Bishops carefully withheld anything written which indicated that reincarnation was actually something many of the Early Church Fathers believed in.

Actually, no.

It is not unusual for us to find in the New Testament that Jesus taught knowledge to the Apostles which they were not allowed to teach to all members of the church. Paul specifically taught the church in Corinth that they were not yet ready to be taught "meat". I think he could have been referring to the secret knowledge which the Apostles had been taught. Indeed, Jesus told the Apostles that He had not revealed everything He knew to them; but only that which His Father had told Him to reveal. It would be the Holy Ghost who would reveal Truth to individuals once Father deemed that the individual was ready for more Truth. So, neither the Old Testament or the New Testament reveal all Truth.

I know this is a Mormon favorite thing, I've seen it plenty of times. When a child is sitting at his/her mother's breast, is meat hidden from them because they aren't able to eat it yet? Are they unaware that meat exists? Do we hide meat from infants?

I believe Jesus when He said, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you".

Yet, Jesus was not actually cutting off pieces of His flesh, nor draining His blood for man to eat and drink -

No one says he was.

even though He was with them when He taught them about the Sacrament. In fact, we know that the Paschal Lamb was symbolic of the Christ who was to come. The Hebrews had always been taught, since they received the Law from Moses, that they were NEVER to drink the blood. Why would God change and decide that it would be necessary for mankind to drink blood once Jesus had finally come in the flesh, been crucified, and Resurrected? It is SYMBOLIC!!!

You believe that many disciples stopped following Jesus because a symbol of eating was to hard to accept?

Jesus' blood is not the blood of an animal.

I beg to differ with you here, as well. One of the core issues of the Great Schism of 1054 AD between the Eastern Orthodox churches and the church of Rome was over this very concept. The Leader of the Eastern Orthodox churches even excommunicated the Pope in Rome; and the Pope excommunicated the Leader of the Eastern Orthodox churches. Today this issue still divides them.

You should check your history, and what the Orthodox churches believe and teach. The great schism was over the Bishop of Rome claiming primacy, and the Filioque.

The idea that the bread and wine actually become the flesh and blood of Christ was NOT a sacred tradition. It "became" sacred tradition when the Pope decided to call it such - which, as you can see, was long after Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth.

Again, check your history.

Therefore, without the personal witness and confirmation of Truth from the Holy Ghost, I am not quick to believe that sacred written or oral tradition which is taught to us automatically means that the tradition is correct, or that we understand those traditions correctly.

No one is asking you to accept anything "automatically". Either you believe Jesus has guided His Church, as He promised, or you don't. I believe He has, and still does. I don't hold a belief that the Holy Spirit stopped guiding Christ's Church. I don't automatically accept the myth of a "great apostasy", really don't see any evidence for it.

The Jews in Jesus' day, knew their written traditions. I do not doubt that the Pharisees, scribes, and the Sadducees knew their oral traditions. Yet they crucified our Savior. Their knowledge of both written and oral traditions failed them in much the same way as I see that written and oral traditions have failed you.

This isn't logical. It is people, humans, who crucified Jesus Christ. Not their knowledge (or lack thereof). Many Jews converted to Christianity. Jews certainly know the Messianic prophecies. What was not accepted by some, or many Jews, of Christ's time (and today), is that He is the Messiah.

Certainly they had all the knowledge available to them about the Messiah, including Jesus Christ Himself, in person. He was a Jew, and Jewish scripture is referenced many times (particularly in the Gospel of Luke and the letter to the Hebrews) in order to show very specifically the prophecies that Jesus fulfills. What meaning would this have to Jews if they hadn't been first taught, and knew, about the prophecies to begin with? Or didn't find them to be important?

Some people believe, some do not. Still the same today, for anyone, Jew or not. If you think it is knowledge that saves, then all you have to do is say "Jesus is Lord and Savior" to someone. There, they have the knowledge. Done.

Inasmuch as I do believe that the Gospels are sacred to the believer, I place my dependence for being guided to the Truth held within them to the Holy Ghost. He is the witness on the physical earth of all spiritual Truth. God does not "exist" in a book; He is a living God, Jesus is our living Savior, and the Holy Ghost is living to witness and confirm Truth to us today....here and now.

Blessings,

jo

God's Word is Jesus Christ. Present in many ways. Scripture, Eucharist, His Church, prayer, the baptized. The Holy Spirit is not something separate from God. God is: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They testify of each other. The Holy Spirit bestows gifts of God, giving them, but what is given is not something separate from the Word of God.

[_gdemetz]

Nipper, consider this again: "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments {works}." Jesus Christ