Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_madeleine]

So according to you another receives the Holy Spirit and then they interpret the Bible in some proper way.

Yes, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, given to Christ's Church. It is not the only gift. Individuals are guided by the Holy Spirit as well.

If we are guided by the Holy Spirit directly and form our own views for some reason that is not proper in your eyes.

Personal interpretation is an innovation.

2 Peter 1

20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

I agree that many do indeed interpret scripture all over the map. This is the fault of man and not the Holy Spirit. In order for scripture to say what the RCC wishes it to say then many areas of scripture have to be put aside and considered in error. Like the Book of Daniel or Revelation.

The RCC does not consider the Book of Daniel or Revelation to be in error. If they did, it would not have been included in the canon which the Catholic Church compiled.

In my view all of scripture must be true. Whatever interpretation we hold to must make all scripture one integrated message. Over the years I have formed some views of scripture and most scripture is now coming together for me. I see all religions as a subset of the truth. Each one holds some ideas which are right and some which don't add to our understanding. This also applies to the LDS. They do not hold all truth. Anyone who declares that they or their religion knows it all just does not get just how complex the message is. But to give up on a personal quest and rest on another's interpretation is setting yourself for a fall.

I spent many years as an atheist. What I saw was every Tom, Dick and Jane interpreting scripture however they like, including atheists. In that way, scripture becomes absolutely meaningless. I can only describe my experience as a Catholic in they way that St. Jerome described: illumination.

The thing I see with sola scriptura, is a false claim, that of, a lack of an authoritative interpretation. EVERYONE gets an interpretation from somewhere, or someone. What you are saying, is that you are the sole authoritative interpreter of scripture. You can be certain that I reject your claim.

Of course scripture is one integrated message. That of SALVATION.

Many people use history to tell them what to do with their faith. They see a church which has a long history and it seems to go back to Christ. If you accept that history then it is easy to accept what others tell you about how they over time have figured it all out. But this whole of reasoning is something which Christ hates. He wishes us to have a personal relationship with Him.

My relationship with Jesus is more profound than it has been in my entire life, thanks.

The evidence for the continuity of Christ's Church is pretty overwhelming. The evidence for a "great apostasy" is missing entirely.

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/why-does-god-hate-practices-of-the-nicolaitans.html

and

http://yahushua.net/nicolaitan.htm

Your point is your opinion.

[_Franktalk]

Your point is your opinion.

An opinion I happen to share with Christ.

[_jo1952]

Yes, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, given to Christ's Church. It is not the only gift. Individuals are guided by the Holy Spirit as well.

The Prophets and Apostles were moved by the Holy Spirit to give the messages they taught. Jesus gave His Apostles that gift before Pentecost. At Pentecost, the lay members of the church also received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The "gift" of the Holy Ghost is not reserved for Prophets and Apostles only; the Holy Ghost is a gift which is received by baptized members of the church. For a while it appears this gift was received all at the same time by large groups of church members. However, the Bible also teaches that individuals would receive this gift from an Apostle by the laying on of hands. It appears that this latter method of receiving the gift is the way the majority of believers obtained the gift of the Holy Ghost as the church grew (i.e., through the laying on of hands by someone who has the power and authority to do so).

We should not confuse the receiving of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as the only method whereby mankind can receive Truth via the Holy Ghost. The Light of Christ dwells inside all of us. In some it shines brighter if it is has not been dulled by the choices we make. When we sincerely seek Truth in our lives, the Light of Christ inside of us will be drawn to more Light. When we hear Truth spoken, such as when we hear the Gospel message, if we are seeking Truth at that time, then we will feel the stirrings of the Light of Christ inside of us. If we are not seeking Truth at the time we hear the Gospel message, we will not experience any stirrings within us.

Those who feel the stirrings within them are more likely to decide to exercise faith in the message they have heard. This is when the Holy Ghost will confirm to us that we are making the right choice. Some may experience this confirming witness from the Holy Ghost in a big and profound way. Others may not be aware of the confirming witness other than having a continuing feeling that they are headed in the right direction. It depends upon the person, as each of us make our journey to return to God in a personal and distinct way which is different from anyone else's journey.

What if someone who is seeking Truth does not have anyone to teach them the Gospel message? The Holy Ghost will still guide and direct them. God is not a respector of persons. The Holy Ghost is an equal opportunity messenger so-to-speak.

Personal interpretation is an innovation.

2 Peter 1

20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Peter is speaking of the person who gives the prophecy. Read both verses together. When a Prophet speaks God's will, he speaks according to what the Holy Ghost has been instructed by God to reveal. In other words, Peter is teaching that prophecy revealed in scripture (sometimes it has been handed down and taught through oral tradition; and sometimes it has been written down and taught through tradition) came from the influence of God; it did not come from the prophet's imagination or personal innovation.

Peter is teaching members how they can also be taught by the same method: through the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:19 (KJV)
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Consider how we are instructed to let the Light which shines within us be seen by others. The Holy Ghost, as taught by Jesus, leads to all Truth. When we progress on our journey, more and more light replaces the darkness that is in us until such time as the "day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts".

Other people cannot take our journey for us. It is an error to believe that the RCC has had all Truth revealed to them, or that they are the only way to learn Truth. It is the Holy Ghost who reveals Truth. We need our own testimony and experiencing of the Truth which is revealed by the Holy Ghost. Once an individual HAS had ALL Truth revealed to them, then there is no darkness left inside of them. At that time their personal "will" will be in perfect alignment with God's will. Also at that time, that individual will have no further mystery about the Kingdom of God. As long as the RCC teaches in their doctrine that there are mysteries which cannot be understood, then they are manifesting to the world that they have not yet received all Truth.

The RCC does not consider the Book of Daniel or Revelation to be in error. If they did, it would not have been included in the canon which the Catholic Church compiled.

I would offer that you read what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about the Book of Daniel and about Revelation (you will find this under "the Apocalypse). The book of Revelation almost did not make it as canon. The RCC claims that John did not know what he was talking about; however they will quote some verses from Revelation when it suits their needs.

I spent many years as an atheist. What I saw was every Tom, Dick and Jane interpreting scripture however they like, including atheists. In that way, scripture becomes absolutely meaningless. I can only describe my experience as a Catholic in they way that St. Jerome described: illumination.

It is awesome that you have come to believe in Christ!!

The thing I see with sola scriptura, is a false claim, that of, a lack of an authoritative interpretation. EVERYONE gets an interpretation from somewhere, or someone. What you are saying, is that you are the sole authoritative interpreter of scripture. You can be certain that I reject your claim.

I see Sola Scriptura as a concept that if a person holds to a belief that in their opinion is not supported by the Bible, then that belief cannot be True. The Apostles wrote epistles in order to help members stay on the right path. When a person first comes to Christ, they are at a "milk" level of understanding. The Apostles continued to encourage the members to seek for spiritual Truth through the Holy Ghost. Jesus had taught the Apostles not to be concerned with what THEY wanted to say and teach. Rather, Jesus taught them that the Holy Ghost would prompt them on what to say and teach.

We can even see a learning curve evolving in the teachings of the Apostles, as they did not know everything when they started out. Wisdom and knowledge were continually being added to their understanding through the power of the Holy Ghost. We can see through the examples given by conversations between Peter and Paul, or Peter and the other Apostles, that wisdom, knowledge and Truth which was revealed to each of them was not given to all of them at the same time. They received in accordance with what God thought they were ready to have revealed to them.

Paul spent much of his time trying to teach about how it is the Holy Ghost who is the source of spiritual understanding. But the church was still young, and many members had not yet learned how to listen and hear and discern the Holy Ghost. Thus, Paul tells members how they are not yet ready for the "meat" understandings.

This pattern and process which was established in the New Testament has not changed. We all receive wisdom and knowledge and Truth according to our readiness and ability to receive it. The Bible never teaches that only one person had the power and authority to interpret scripture. The Holy Ghost is available to ALL of mankind.

As you progress in your own personal journey, and if you sincerely seek Truth, the Holy Ghost will reveal more to you. You have already taken a huge step from Atheism to belief in Christ. Right now the Institution of the RCC religion is where you are most comfortable in your journey. This is as it should be. All that I would offer at this time is that you be aware that Truth is everywhere....not just in the RCC. Keep your heart and your mind open....in seeking mode, if you will, so that your spirit can continue to receive more Light. Light exists within and without the box of organized religious institutions. Organized religious institutions tend to place God inside of their own man-created box; thus limiting the members of those institutions to a particular view of what is allowed to be believed.

Of course scripture is one integrated message. That of SALVATION.

I would offer that there are many levels of understanding within the Bible which the Holy Ghost will reveal to you when you are ready. Also, there are many things in the Bible which are not easily understood until we are ready. Yet, when our spirit receives revelation, we need to make sure that what has been revealed fits with the rest of our interpretations. It is more complicated than it may first appear due to our enthusiasm and rejoicing in having come to Christ. We need to progress from milk to meat and to more.

My relationship with Jesus is more profound than it has been in my entire life, thanks.

This is wonderful!! Again, I would offer that you keep your heart and your mind opened. We are all blind to what has not yet been revealed to us personally. We all have much to learn.

What Frank was referring to which Jesus hates (and this hate is mentioned twice in Revelation) is the Nicolaitans and what they represented. We can learn some of what Jesus meant by looking at the word "nicolaitans" and its definition. Basically, the Nicolaitans had a belief system wherein their claim was that the leaders of this group believed the members had to look to them for direction and guidance. This obviously places the guidance and direction which the Holy Ghost has been given responsibility for into a sub-position of importance. Unfortunately, the Pope now holds that very position and has usurped the power and authority of the Holy Ghost to personally lead each believer individually.

Regardless of what the correct interpretation of what Jesus meant, Peter taught against what the Pope does:

1 Peter 5:1-3 (KJV)

5 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

Please especially note that Peter is not claiming to be of any higher authority than any other elder. Now, since the RCC claims that you must be a member of their religious institution in order to obtain Salvation, and that you must believe and agree with everything they teach, they are manifesting constraint over the laity. Thus, they have already disobeyed this teaching of the Apostle whom they claim is their very foundation.

The evidence for the continuity of Christ's Church is pretty overwhelming. The evidence for a "great apostasy" is missing entirely.

You believe this is so because that is where you are in your journey. And your journey is now constrained within the RCC institution.

Blessings,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is given to Christ's TRUE church, and because of that this TRUE church would never state that the earth was the center of the universe, practice the sale of indulgences, or kill millions of people during an inquisition! "By their fruits ye shall know them."

[_Franktalk]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is given to Christ's TRUE church, and because of that this TRUE church would never state that the earth was the center of the universe, practice the sale of indulgences, or kill millions of people during an inquisition! "By their fruits ye shall know them."

This is not helpful. I do believe that there is a restored church but I also believe than many do not need it. All things which need to happen will happen. The church is a tool and nothing more. The argument as to which church is true falls on its face when you look at divorce rates, prison rates, and the like we find that all churches suffer the same as the general population. So by their fruit all churches should shut up until they walk the walk.

That being said I do think that there is a restored Gospel. But the whole understanding of that Gospel is not required. We are all accounted for our faith and belief. I do believe that God respects faith more than perfect understanding.

[_gdemetz]

I disagree with you on this one Frank. The church's purpose is to proclaim the gospel, redeam the dead, and perfect the saints. I think everyone needs that.

[_Franktalk]

I disagree with you on this one Frank. The church's purpose is to proclaim the gospel, redeam the dead, and perfect the saints. I think everyone needs that.

There is a line which we should never cross. When someone is on a path to God we should be very careful not to interfere. To do so may be to interfere with God's plan.

The church should live the Gospel which they do not. That is separate from a restored message.

[_gdemetz]

Yes Frank, I agree, but when they are attacking God's church, than I doubt seriously if they are on a path to God.

[_Franktalk]

Yes Frank, I agree, but when they are attacking God's church, than I doubt seriously if they are on a path to God.

Saul was having Disciples stoned to death. Sometimes it is hard for us to see what God does.

There are so many that do not seek God but seek instead the creation. That is where we should concentrate our efforts. But there are times I do engage in a debate of scripture. I have many opinions about scripture but few answers. Until that day comes in which God desires that I know all knowledge I will be blind.

I understand your zeal and desire for all to come to the same love you have for God. Saul / Paul had that same attitude for the Jews. It saddened him greatly when most rejected the message. But it was ordained of God that they should not understand the message but instead live under the Law of Moses. The blindness of the Jews will continue for some time. But because their blindness is caused by God they will only be accountable for what they can know. A blessing if you ask me. But some who call them self Christians think of the Jews as subhuman. In this they do not bless the Jews. By this act they lose the blessing from God and instead receive a curse. When I speak to Jews who practice I have a great deal of respect for them. I do not speak about the New Testament. There is so much to talk about in any section of scripture. Let us share God in a common light if we can. My issue with the RCC is not in the members. And even most leaders I am sure they think they are doing God's work. But I have found that many do not know what the leaders have to say about scripture. But most assume I don't know what I am talking about and they fall back in support of their leaders. But if they love God they have the important things correct.

[_madeleine]

Your point is your opinion.

An opinion I happen to share with Christ.

Christ did not hold an opinion that His Church failed.