Adding to the Bible?

[_jo1952]

The spiritual senses and physical are all the same. They are all going through your brain. Do you really trust your internal senses more then your other sense like sight and sound. Nope. I doubt you use them everyday like you do the others, and why do your conclusion conflict with other so much? Maybe you could give us some examples. You state why some don't trust there internal senses more. Probably because you don't either. Do you use your sight and sound to get around or what you view as your spiritual. I know many who will give them more wight in making decisions, but when it goes against evidence from the other sense they usually don't do well. Investments may be a good example.

Trusting my spiritual senses more than my physical senses does not mean I do not use my physical senses while I am in my physical body. Our spirit is housed inside of our physical body. Some people can spend their entire lifetime in this estate and never have their spirit awakened to the spiritual realm which surrounds them.

I think I understand better what it is you are trying to say, though. Since the physical body cannot continue to live once our spirit leaves it, while we are "alive" our physical and spirit self are inescapably connected. There is a distinction, however, between being "spiritually" "dead" and having our "spirit" "reborn" or awakened WHILE we are still in our physical body. It is not until we are aware of this distinction that we can then have spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear with. While our spirit is still "dead" to this distinction, we will see and hear only the physical world around us. We will thus fail to see and hear the spiritual realm within which our physical "reality" exists. If and/or when our spirit begins to awaken, our journey on the earth becomes quite different; we will see and hear and think (reason/use the power of our brains) in an entirely new way.

Perhaps another way to put this is that until our spirit begins its awakening, we use our brains without the light switch turned on; thus we journey in darkness but do not know that we are in darkness. This would be similar to how our eyes are able to see in a dark room. If we have never experienced seeing with a light on, we won't know that we are missing anything. Once the light switch turns on, we become aware of "light" itself, and see more clearly because the light increases our ability to see what IS around us.

Blessings,

jo

[_Themis]

Trusting my spiritual senses more than my physical senses does not mean I do not use my physical senses while I am in my physical body. Our spirit is housed inside of our physical body. Some people can spend their entire lifetime in this estate and never have their spirit awakened to the spiritual realm which surrounds them.

I know lots who have spiritual awakening but yet cannot agree with each other on what they might mean. Even here it is fun to watch. I have had my own, and I certainty don't mean to suggest we should value them and even use them in our lives, but I think people can take them to far in what truths they think they can get from them.

I think I understand better what it is you are trying to say, though. Since the physical body cannot continue to live once our spirit leaves it, while we are "alive" our physical and spirit self are inescapably connected.

What I mean is all our experiences and whatever you want to call them has to come through our brains/minds. They also need to be interpreted or meanings attached to them. The meanings may be wrong. Some of our abilities like sight have better results and have more agreement then others. Perhaps you could provide examples of what you call spiritual reliability.

Perhaps another way to put this is that until our spirit begins its awakening, we use our brains without the light switch turned on; thus we journey in darkness but do not know that we are in darkness. This would be similar to how our eyes are able to see in a dark room. If we have never experienced seeing with a light on, we won't know that we are missing anything. Once the light switch turns on, we become aware of "light" itself, and see more clearly because the light increases our ability to see what IS around us.

I don't tend to create to much objective truth claims from my spiritual experiences, but do you think that others may say what you did above about you because they have a different meanings for their experiences?

[_jo1952]

I know lots who have spiritual awakening but yet cannot agree with each other on what they might mean. Even here it is fun to watch. I have had my own, and I certainty don't mean to suggest we should value them and even use them in our lives, but I think people can take them to far in what truths they think they can get from them.

I believe that spiritual awakening, once a person becomes aware of their spiritual connection to the Divine, is a life long process. We cannot become fully awakened until we know all Truth. As Jesus taught:

John 14:26 (KJV)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

and:

John 16:12-15 (KJV) (emphasis mine)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So, we can see that the Holy Ghost will bring to our remembrance the things we have already been taught. Please note that Jesus did not teach them everything He knew because "ye cannot bear them now". I think this is quite a remarkable statement considering the quality time which the Savior spent with His Apostles between His Resurrection and Ascension. I imagine it to be like some type of super-seminar for teaching about the Kingdom of God; i.e., Truth, having mysteries revealed, etc.

Additionally, we will be taught all Truth; that would be on top of whatever Truth we have not already had revealed which is the part of Truth which will be brought to our remembrance.

Now, we also have evidence in the New Testament that not all Apostles received the same personal revelations as the same times. As I have mentioned before, the Apostles were still learning themselves. We can see some of them maturing through their writings. Peter is a wonderful example; as is Paul. Just because they were Apostles, they did not all have either the same amount of Truth, nor did they have all of the same Truth. They all knew parts of the Truth; each in accordance with what they were able to handle and were ready for as revealed to them by the Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost wouldn't teach an individual anything until Father told Him WHAT He should reveal. I would also venture to say that even when Jesus taught them as a group, that they did not all understand what Jesus was teaching. Thus, even the Truth which Jesus taught them was not understood in the exact same way from Apostle to Apostle.

And so it is with each of us. There are infinite possibilities of the parts of Truth any individual may be ready for at any given time. Unfortunately, the process of how ALL Truth is revealed...which can take a life-time or more, is not understood by most believers. Hence, they misinterpret what is happening as evidence that, for instance, I am not receiving Truth at all if what has been revealed to me does not agree with what has been revealed to someone else. Until ALL Truth IS revealed to ALL people, it will be impossible for everyone to agree upon what ALL Truth IS; or even upon what parts of Truth are being understood correctly. Until we have all of the pieces, we cannot complete the puzzle.

However, if people can come to understand this principle, they will be able to help share with one another and prepare each other to be ready to have more Truth revealed. Instead of fighting and arguing, they will be able to rejoice in whatever Truth they DO have; thus uplifting and edifying one another. It takes great faith and an open mind and heart to be able to grow in this way....unfettered by the boxes that organized religions place God inside of which limits what members of those organizations are allowed to believe.

What I mean is all our experiences and whatever you want to call them has to come through our brains/minds. They also need to be interpreted or meanings attached to them. The meanings may be wrong. Some of our abilities like sight have better results and have more agreement then others. Perhaps you could provide examples of what you call spiritual reliability.

As my spirit continues to awaken and more and more Truth is revealed to me, I am able to see more and more layers of meaning in scripture which I was not able to see before. As my mind is opened more and more to the Kingdom of God, pieces of understanding which I did not even know were missing (In other words, which I was blind to) help to make a more complete picture of what scripture is teaching. Thus passages which I couldn't even begin to understand, or which held only questionable understanding for me, are being opened up to me. I am thus able to see more of the whole; and as this takes place I am more and more assured that I am on the correct path for my journey. My journey with God brings me unspeakable joy as my cup overflows; much much beyond what joy I have ever found through physical relationships. Through earthly trials, my spiritual experiences overshadow them and give meaning and purpose to my struggles with darkness. Also, I have found Truth within the writings of the Prophet Joseph Smith which have never been made doctrine. Thus, I recognize more surely that he IS a Prophet of God. And just like most other Prophets, he was not allowed to teach to everyone all that he had been taught simply because mankind does not change. In other words, until man is ready to receive, he will not have certain parts of Truth revealed to him. Many people who read his writings such as his diary do not understand what it is he was saying; his words remain a mystery to them.

I can specifically point to a very controversial subject; that is Joseph Smith's belief in reincarnation. Just recently has this been revealed to me as Truth. But it is a subject that should be reserved for another thread.

I don't tend to create to much objective truth claims from my spiritual experiences, but do you think that others may say what you did above about you because they have a different meanings for their experiences?

If and when they are ready, they will understand. Truth is Truth wherever we may find it. Unless we are sincerely seeking it, we will not find it. And there are many factors which influence when we will be ready to have various parts of all Truth revealed to us in our journey.

Blessings,

jo

[_Themis]

Jo,

Unfortunately your last post was again a bunch of rambling assertions without substance. It's the I know because I know.

You never answered my questions.

Do you think that others who think they are spiritually awakened might say you are not because they have a different take about it then you?

Physical stimuli like sight have to go through the mind before they are interpreted by the mind. Would you agree or disagree that the spiritual stimuli also has to go through the mind to be interpreted.

[_gdemetz]

Nipper, do you have any references to show that those are the books being referred to? The Book of Life and the Lamb's Book of Life are one and the same, but they are not the books which I referred to. The books that are opened are the scriptures and other books in which the laws to man are given. Men are judged by the laws they are given. Therefore in the judgment day, man who have disobeyed the written laws will have no excuse if they were given to them as recorded in those books. They are not a book or books to show whether a man walked down the isle and made a verbal profession of faith. Many will come to the Lord in that day crying that they have, and even done false miracles in His name, but He tells them to depart from Him. Why? Because they didn't really know Him and love Him since they did not keep His commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" {which are written in those books!}.

[_jo1952]

Jo,

Unfortunately your last post was again a bunch of rambling assertions without substance. It's the I know because I know.

You never answered my questions.

Do you think that others who think they are spiritually awakened might say you are not because they have a different take about it then you?

Physical stimuli like sight have to go through the mind before they are interpreted by the mind. Would you agree or disagree that the spiritual stimuli also has to go through the mind to be interpreted.

I guess you either don't like my answers, you don't understand my answers, you are not reading my posts thoroughly, or you are just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

So be it.

Blessings,

jo

[_Themis]

Jo,

Unfortunately your last post was again a bunch of rambling assertions without substance. It's the I know because I know.

You never answered my questions.

Do you think that others who think they are spiritually awakened might say you are not because they have a different take about it then you?

Physical stimuli like sight have to go through the mind before they are interpreted by the mind. Would you agree or disagree that the spiritual stimuli also has to go through the mind to be interpreted.

I guess you either don't like my answers, you don't understand my answers, you are not reading my posts thoroughly, or you are just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

So be it.

Blessings,

jo

You didn't answer simple questions. When you are ready get back to me.

[_Samantabhadra]

Themis:

Contemporary cognitive science gives strong experimental evidence for a representationalist theory of perception. Meaning, "what we perceive" is strictly not identical with "what (if anything) is 'out there.'" What we perceive are cognitive/sensory representations of the causal features of phenomena. In other words, "perception" is a second-order neural map representing the content of a first-order neural map --to put it in physicalist language that I would dispute at a further level of analysis.

I'm not disputing what you're saying, but I think it's important to keep in mind that the difference between an "external" cause for a perception and an "internal" cause for a perception can be blurry or nonexistent. In what I am going to go ahead and call "real" spiritual traditions--as opposed to e.g. Salt Lake Mormonism--this is why it is absolutely crucial to have spiritual guidance from a qualified master who has progressed along the path to such a point that s/he is capable of pointing out to a disciple which experiences are genuine and which experiences are fabricated. A burning in the bosom, like a vision in a dream (or even in waking life), is not prima facie epistemically reliable.

Also there's more I'd like to say on this topic of epistemic "reliability," especially regarding putatively external phenomena and particles, but I think we're more or less on the same page and it's probably not necessary at this point in the discussion.

jo:

A wall of text is not the same thing as a reply. You would do well to really think over Themis' objections. Themis raises several sophisticated points.

[_jo1952]

In what I am going to go ahead and call "real" spiritual traditions--as opposed to e.g. Salt Lake Mormonism--this is why it is absolutely crucial to have spiritual guidance from a qualified master who has progressed along the path to such a point that s/he is capable of pointing out to a disciple which experiences are genuine and which experiences are fabricated. A burning in the bosom, like a vision in a dream (or even in waking life), is not prima facie epistemically reliable.

Also there's more I'd like to say on this topic of epistemic "reliability," especially regarding putatively external phenomena and particles, but I think we're more or less on the same page and it's probably not necessary at this point in the discussion.

jo:

A wall of text is not the same thing as a reply. You would do well to really think over Themis' objections. Themis raises several sophisticated points.

Samantabhadra,

Can you give me an example, or examples of where you believe a person can go where they can be certain they are being spiritually guided by a qualified master who can point out which experiences are genuine and which experiences are fabricated? Also, do you think Jesus Christ was a qualified master; or were any of His Apostles? If yes, do you think there are any groups who are still teaching what Jesus and/or His Apostles were teaching?

Thank you, and Shalom,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Yea, the restored church of Jesus Christ is a group teaching all that. Examine the articles of faith.