dastardly stem wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:32 pm
Here's my reading. On August 9 they had some text discussion which is when Anne gave some last pushes for sex. John has already declined and ends that day of texts trying to clarify he wants no business with her and wants to set up clear boundaries with work. That happens to be the day they also indicated John went to Joanna. By August 11 the text strings make clear each have had a conversation with Joanna.
Anne says: "Joanna will talk to you. 2 things: 1)you never contact me or me you, 2) I help with the transition and then go away. So maybe one last phone conversation if you want. otherwise, that's it. She will call to talk to you."
John responds: "Is that your decision or her?"
On Augutst 26th--long string of her talking to herself:
Anne: "And for what it's worth, she (Joanna) didn't do a thorough investigation. The negative behaviors I texted her about were <blacked out>, not yours (John's). There was not a name attached with...."
The texts seem a little spotty in that there could be others interspersed that John took out because they look bad on him. But its hard to say. Text conversations can come off broken since they are often accompanied by other forms of communication.
Ah, OK. Yes, I see what you are saying, Stem. There is a level of uncertainty here. I admit that I did not go through all of the texts. I only looked at the ones included in the Mormonism Live episode. Yes, the texts presented raise a lot of interesting questions about the timeline, the nature of their discussion, and where there was agency or a lack thereof.
July 24th has Rosebud propositioning John and John referring to the fact that he has been warning her to "Run away," which could be read in a couple of different ways. Later in the day he says,
"Open Stories Foundation is nice. But nothing matters for you and your family if you're sad, broken, and/or dead."
The last part has me marveling about the fact that Rosebud must have been sharing suicidal ideation with John. She is very unhappy. The two of them are coming into tension. Already this is a situation that is on the precipice of becoming bad. When he says, "Open Stories Foundation is nice," and then indicates that Open Stories Foundation may not be worth all of the bad consequences, you can tell they have already had some communication about one or both of them leaving Open Stories Foundation. John seems to be persuading her that staying at Open Stories Foundation is not worth the fall out from that, but this does not necessarily show that he was the only one considering the cost of them working at Open Stories Foundation together.
On August 5, there is a crucial communication one would like to know more about. In it John tells Rosebud,
"We need to have a talk. Let me know when you can. I want to explore something."
He assures that this something does not involve carrying on the affair further such that Rosebud would be his mistress. But what was it? Had he spoken with Joanna at this point? Was he going to propose that they do what they eventually did do, until she backed out?
On August 6, John tells Rosebud he won't be going to San Francisco for an Open Stories Foundation event. It is important to keep in mind that there is a recurrent theme of them trying to maintain distance in order to avoid taking the relationship up to another level. Rosebud agrees that him not coming to San Fran is for the best.
On August 9, John reiterates how it is crucial that they not be on the same Skype or the same city. This suggests that John's suggestion was more along these lines and not about her quitting Open Stories Foundation. He seemed to be fine with her staying at Open Stories Foundation at this point so long as they were not in situations where they would aggravate the situation. Rosebud then propositions John again. She fantasizes and then declares that:
"We need each other. Plain and simple."
Then John gets firm about them not working together. It is important to mind that this is in response to her getting aggressive in her desire to press John into a sexual relationship and her being obstinate about the necessity of that relationship: "We need each other. Plain and simple."
She means, at the very least, that SHE NEEDS JOHN. And she realizes that he does not necessarily need her, so she is utilizing various devices to change that.
What is most interesting for me as a data point, however, is the fact that John says in this same exchange,
"I've believed for over a year that working together would hurt you, me, and our families."
Really? Then how did Rosebud come to be hired less than a year ago? Was John, Executive Director of Open Stories Foundation, not involved in that decision? Unbelievable. And so he hires someone knowing that their relationship is dangerous? Is he being honest here? Is he lying to himself? Or did he really allow her to be hired knowing this would be a problem?
Then he says,
"Please just go this time. For good. Please."
From Open Stories Foundation? From their relationship? That's not clear. Given the conversation about how he knew working together would be bad, one is inclined to think the former is what he is asking, and that is a problem. If up to this point he was still thinking about operating in a way that they would avoid being in the same city or on the same Skype, then that is much less damning.
August 11 is another crucial date. Here Rosebud writes,
"Joanna will talk to you. 2 things: 1) you never contact me or me you, 2) I help with transition and then go away.
John asks,
"Is that your decision or hers?"
Fishy that he asks?
She does not respond directly (suspicions raised?) but says,
"Will explain everything. But only if I can talk. Don't want to text."
Perhaps she does not want a record of her saying anything more about her voluntarily choosing to leave because she is hedging her bets. She is strongly angling in this exchange to get John to talk to her on the phone. In any case, one of the most important points is that Rosebud presents some arrangement as being arrived at between Joanna and Rosebud, and that John has to talk to Joanna to be filled in.
If what Joanna and Rosebud arranged was truly done without John and he had to find out about it from Joanna, then he may not be responsible for the plan that unfolded. He was unwise to agree to it, as Rosebud then backed out of it and caused a huge stink. It is important to note that what she describes in this plan that John is to learn more about in a phone conversation with Joanna includes her voluntary departure from Open Stories Foundation.
Voluntary.
When John asks her to confirm that, however, she balks, because she wants to get him on the phone.
On August 26, Rosebud apologizes about Joanna:
"Sorry about Joanna."
Presumably, Joanna chewed out John and he was not happy about it? One thing one does not get from this is the sense that it was Joanna and John who were cooperating against the interests of Rosebud.
The next part is absolutely fascinating in that it reveals that Rosebud's perception at the time is that there was no power differential at all:
"Luckily, as we were equals (I'm on board, we're both on governance committee as per operational docs and the executive director position was not defined at last ratification), you are very free and clear."
Now, she could be wrong about this, and we could hash it out, but I find it fascinating that coming up to the end of August she believes she is on par with John in terms of power in the organization. And she is happy about that for the sake of both of them, evidently.
Then more interesting and confusing stuff:
"Her [Joanna's] actions, according to [redacted] are outside of the appropriate way to handle the situation."
Alarm bells. So, John is not in trouble, but Joanna is still not handling things the right way?
"What she has given in writing demonstrates this. But please don't challenge her."
BOOM.
Wow. OK. This is VERY significant. She is telling John that Joanna's actions are procedurally inappropriate, but she WANTS JOHN TO ALLOW IT TO GO FORWARD ANYWAY.
John is in way over his head. This whole exchange is bonkers.
"If you can, please at least make me an author on Mormon Stories so I can help NYC so that the drama doesn't make it directly to Richard Bushman."
Threat?
"As Joanna doesn't seem to understand smooth transition in this circumstance, I will transition than [sic] resign."
LOL! Joanna is clueless, but Rosebud? Old pro at transitions in these circumstances. Love to hear about her prior experience someday.
"She does not have legal authority to stop us from working so I will start up business again and then taper off."
"According to her deceleration [sic; declaration] that she will fire us or resign, my guess is that she will resign."
This is what Rosebud wanted and expected, that Joanna, here being painted as the ignorant baddy by Rosebud, will resign and allow her and John to move forward with MoSto as they like.
"Does not have standing to fire us and that would look like a huge power grab."
See the calculation in all of this?
"My belief is that Joanna resigning from Open Stories Foundation would be positive."
We don't go, John. Joanna goes. Remember, folks: Rosebud seems to have talked to Joanna BEFORE John did. That means it is very possible that she set up the situation that she is now fighting against. Rosebud sets something up, then she apologizes FOR Joanna after that. Now she is selling this idea that Joanna is the problem who must go.
"I will work to maintain positive relationship with her."
She can go, in other words, and yet we don't want her to raise a stink and spoil things.
And here is the ask:
"So: please give me MS access to allow me to help NYC and other committees that have expectations."
Here is the dilemma for John. He has to choose between Rosebud and Joanna, just as Joanna maneuvered him into.
"Also, I will make Facebook group requests late tonight. Please add me back and make me an admin in the main group. No need to make me an admin in all the regions. Doesn't matter. Would draw attention."
Here we see the coup plans moving beyond being a MoSto author to being an admin on the Facebook group.
Then the phony promise:
"I will remove my own admin after the transition."
I'm calling BS on that one.
Now about the investigation, in Rosebud' words:
"And for what it's worth, she didn't do a thorough investigation. The negative behaviors I texted her about were [redacted]'s, not yours. There was not a name attached with t[redacted] did not have enough information to know better. He's cool."
Once again, she seems to want John to feel like he is out of the woods. They are supposed to be allies against Joanna and redacted others who are at fault. This is August 26th we are talking about. There is no indication here that she blames John or thinks that he has done anything wrong. At least, in her communications she does not want John to think that they are at odds on anything, and it looks like part of the motivation behind this manipulation is probably to get access to MoSto website and Facebook group. She sees her and John pushing Joanna out, and going on their merry way. One wonders whether the next step would be to push John out the door after Joanna, leaving Rosebud in charge.
