Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_gdemetz]

Sincere prayer.

[_Drifting]

Sincere prayer.

How does sincere prayer help you to tell the difference between warm feelings and Holy Ghost warm feelings?

[_gdemetz]

Albion, here are two of the references you asked for: Isaiah chapter 29, and Ezekiel chapter 37. Please feel free to give me your Papa Joe's version.

[_Albion]

As usual, gdemetz, you couldn't resist the insult, could you? Aren't you proud to use your "priesthood" in such a humble and holy way? Isaiah 29 is used by Mormons as some kind of proof text but despite reading it more than one I could find no mention of the Book of Mormon. The entire chapter deals with the distress Israel will suffer under the hands of invaders but God will ultimately do marvellous things to revive Israel. Ezekiel is clearly about the two kingdoms of Israel being joined. I know you want the word "sticks"to mean scrolls or books but sticks for books is never used in Hebrew writing. How you get a reference for a Book from a chapter that clearly is talking of the reuniting of the two kingdoms of Israel is quite bizarre.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, you need my braille version desperately! WRITE upon them, Albion! Are you saying that they will write upon those kingdoms?! The combined book is even held before peoples eyes, but if they are too spiritually blind then they still can't see! You need to read things more carefully. You really understand very little of the Bible. Try reading the story of how Martin Harris took the writings to the learned man (professor Charles Anthon) and how the professor told him that he could not read a sealed book, etc. What do you think the Bible meant when it stated that truth would spring out of the earth?! Do you think that truth should just be ignored?! What about the restitution of all things, Albion?! It would not be all things if lost scripture, lost ordinances, lost teachings, lost priesthood, lost church structure which Paul lists, etc., etc., etc., were not included!!!

[_Albion]

Did you read what I wrote, gdemetz? I think not. Stick does not mean book, scroll, newspaper, e-reader or any other method of communication. As the more scholarly NIV renders it: "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it: Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him. Then take another stick of wood, and write on it Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him." It is literal sticks representing the two kingdoms and their eventual joining together in one kingdom under God."

Find me a single scholarly source that interprets the word stick to mean anything other than what it is in the passage. When you do that, we can discuss more on the topic. I have heard the Mormon viewpoint on this a thousand times and you can add nothing that will make it any more valid. It just isn't there. Again, it's a question of reading the passage in context, something hard for Mormons to do when they repeat these so-called proof texts like a mantra.

[_gdemetz]

Look up "Stick of Judah" (Neal A. Maxwell). This goes into great detail. However, in your Papa Joe's Version; gods does not mean gods, ordinations do not mean ordinations, keeping the commandments does not mean keeping the commandments, etc., etc., etc., so I am not getting my hopes up that your blindness will depart.

[Guest]

Albion, I decided to try and make it simpler for you. I'm going to make this so simple that a child should be able to understand it. First of all, The Hebrew word which was translated into sticks, means wood. Secondly, there are several different prophesies about several different topics in the 37th chapter of Ezekiel. The first part is verses 1-14 dealing with the resurrection of Israel, or God's people. The second part is verses 15-20 dealing with the two pieces of writings. The third part is the telling, or prophesy of the restoration of the Nation of Israel.

The second part tells of TWO WRITINGS ON WOOD (YOU DON"T WRITE ON KINGDOMS). Note verse 20: "And the sticks (wood, commonly written on at that time) whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes." THE TWO KINGDOMS WON'T BE IN ONES HAND BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE'S EYES, BUT A COMBINED BOOK CAN BE HELD BY SOMEONE BEFORE ANOTHER ONE'S EYES! Also, this prophesy refers to ONLY JUDAH AND JOSEPH AND NOT OF ALL ISRAEL BEING RESTORED TO THEIR INHERITANCE!

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine!"

[_jo1952]

Here is prophecy which Peter taught about himself:

2 Peter 1:12-15 (KJV)

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

In other words, Peter said he would not be negligent to always put the church members in remembrance of the "present truth". In order to not be negligent, Peter put them in remembrance while he was still alive (though God had shown him he would soon die physically..."put off this my tabernacle"), and also AFTER his death. Thus, putting them in remembrance both before AND after his death; i.e., always.

The "present truth" was restored to the earth by Peter (along with James and John) when he returned to the earth to teach and to give the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Joseph Smith. Thus Peter has been diligent (which is the Greek translation of the word "endeavour") both before he died and after he died in putting us in remembrance of the "present truth", just like he said. As such, Peter has fulfilled that prophecy about himself.

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

gdemetz: Please do not stretch yourself to make thing simple for me...I know exactly what Mormonism teaches, likely as well as you but I do, of course, reject it as the fable that it is. It does appear that some scriptures you want to interpret exactly as they are written and others you want to interpret, as in the case of this passage from Ezekiel. I suppose it depends on which way the better viewpoint appears to support Mormon belief. Actually, wood was not commonly written on at that time (historical fact) because it simply was not durable enough to last and because wood was not a common commodity in a very arid land. More typical would be papyrus scrolls such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. On a scale of ten this " Mormon proof text" scores a resounding zero as any Biblical scholar and Jewish historian will confirm. I think we're done on this one.