Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_madeleine]

jo1952, We were begotten of our parents first. Baptism is our rebirth in Christ.

We (the human race) were begotten of the Father at the creation of Adam and Eve. The Fall caused our (the human race) removal from the presence of God. We are regenerated in Jesus Christ, as heirs of the Father.

Titus 3

4
But when the kindness and generous love
of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done
but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit

I don't know why you believe I would believe Adam and Eve are excluded.

Original Sin is a lack of a grace, that of, the inheritance that Adam and Eve lost for us. We can't inherit what our parents didn't have. Baptism is how we are initiated into the Kingdom of God. Do you live in the presence of God now, as Adam and Eve did before the Fall? There are temporal results that are caused by sin. Ours is, separation from God in this life. Jesus Christ has reconciled us, the temporal effect still remains. You will die. I will die. You are born lacking in something that your parents cannot give you because they don't have it. Our inheritance has not been restored through our first parents. God did not make a science fictional change of the past that caused our future parents (your mom and dad) to possess something they don't have. Only through Jesus Christ are we restored to what was lost by our first parents.

As for infants, perhaps you should read the document, "The Hope for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized".

[_Franktalk]

We (the human race) were begotten of the Father at the creation of Adam and Eve. The Fall caused our (the human race) removal from the presence of God. We are regenerated in Jesus Christ, as heirs of the Father.

The human race is of flesh. What we are in essence is spirit and intelligence. This existed way before the creation. We may have several births on the earth, one in flesh, one in spirit when we realize who we actually are, and we may be born of Jesus when we have faith in Him and accept His sacrifice. Do not confuse these with being created in whole by God in the creation.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God is complex and so are we. Break free from the shackles that keep your soul housed in a box created by man.

[_madeleine]

Franktalk, there isn't anything that is hidden from God. God is omnipresent, we are not.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk, there isn't anything that is hidden from God. God is omnipresent, we are not.

Are you serious? This is your response? How does this relate at all to our existence before the creation?

I believe that one time I was in heaven and I chose to come to the earth and take on human form. I do not exist at all points and at all times at the same time. That power rest in God. In this we are very different than God. In this we seem to agree.

[_gdemetz]

Frank, I feel sorry for you. I can relate to you trying to battle against all these ridiculous non scriptural man made philosophies the people have been brainwashed by so much that when the true gospel is restored, they can't even seem to recognize it! Begotten of the Father at the creation of Adam and Eve?!? You see how far people have strayed from the true teachings of the prophets and the Bible!

[_Franktalk]

Frank, I feel sorry for you. I can relate to you trying to battle against all these ridiculous non scriptural man made philosophies the people have been brainwashed by so much that when the true gospel is restored, they can't even seem to recognize it! Begotten of the Father at the creation of Adam and Eve?!? You see how far people have strayed from the true teachings of the prophets and the Bible!

I think you miss the point. Everything born of evil can be used by God for good. If I never joined in these talks I would have stayed where I was in understanding five years ago. So the difficulty that others may have is a blessing to me. I have been forced to defend things I knew very little about. I have had to turn over many stones. And more important I am sure that I have come to Christ because of the prayers of others. How can I not pray for those who need it? And how do I know who needs it unless I seek to find? So no don't feel sorry for me for I am blessed.

[_gdemetz]

OK Frank, God bless you!

[_madeleine]

Franktalk, there isn't anything that is hidden from God. God is omnipresent, we are not.

Are you serious? This is your response? How does this relate at all to our existence before the creation?

I believe that one time I was in heaven and I chose to come to the earth and take on human form. I do not exist at all points and at all times at the same time. That power rest in God. In this we are very different than God. In this we seem to agree.

The scriptures you provided are in regards to God, who knows everything. Nothing is hidden from God. God didn't suddenly realize that you exist on the day of your birth.

[_gdemetz]

Frank, ask her how all the sons of God could shout for joy before the earth was even created if they didn't even exist?! Explain to her Hebrews 12:9 which states that God is the Father of our spirits. Good luck!

[_madeleine]

Frank, I feel sorry for you. I can relate to you trying to battle against all these ridiculous non scriptural man made philosophies the people have been brainwashed by so much that when the true gospel is restored, they can't even seem to recognize it! Begotten of the Father at the creation of Adam and Eve?!? You see how far people have strayed from the true teachings of the prophets and the Bible!

Its the KJV that makes it difficult to discuss scripture. I am not a speaker of Elizabethean English. Begotten is not a word I would choose, nor is it in any other translation.

In trying to use the Bible Mormons favor (which is not a criticism) and trying to use the same language (early 17th century English) I can't convey what I mean to convey.

So let's use modern English.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (NIV)

The human race was originally created in a state where they were in the presence of God. This is a birth, the birth of God's People. By the Fall of Adam and Eve we could not inherit our place in the presence of God. They were expelled from God's presence.

Christ has reconciled us, restored us to the presence of the Father. He is our living hope. Our new birth is in him.

Hope that helps.