Truth and Burning Bosoms

[_Quinn]

I grew up in the Church. When I was sixteen, I remember a priests quorum lesson during which our adviser, brother D., set out to help the class feel the Spirit. I don't remember the specifics of the lesson, but I remember that it worked for me, meaning that I had an experience which thereafter became my reference class for "feeling the Spirit."

Once it was pointed it out to me, I realized that I had felt the Spirit before. But knowing now what that feeling really represented made me more powerful. What an incredible gift; that mysterious frisson was really God Himself trying to tell me something! Sure, after following those promptings for a while it seemed that the answers God gave through the Spirit weren't always as unambiguous or as easy to hear as I'd have liked. I came to understand, though, that this was just the way it worked. Maybe God had reasons for not answering every one of my inquiries. Or maybe I was just an imperfect vessel trying to interpret the promptings of a perfect messenger. In any case, any errors of interpretation were my own.

I served a mission. I married in the temple. I had noticed more and more that the feeling I attributed to the Spirit had a funny way of attaching itself to things I was particularly interested and invested in. Why was that, I wondered. It seemed strange that I would have spiritual feelings associated with certain pieces of popular music, or while reading about the sciences (particularly physics and biology). I also noticed that there were a lot of people who clearly didn't know very much about the world (e.g. baby-faced 19-year-old missionaries) or even about their church, but who nevertheless claimed to "know" what God was like and what he wanted other people to do. It had not until then occurred to me to strongly question one of the most basic premises of my faith. Evidence is required to justify a belief in any claim. What evidence did I have for believing what my priests' adviser had told me? Just like I can't invoke the Bible to show that the Bible is true, I can't claim to know anything about the Spirit by the Spirit. And if I wasn't justified in believing that, then my belief in everything else that I thought I was justified in believing fell aside also, because that's the way I 'knew' religious truths.

Where was the evidence that the feeling I had labeled a long time ago as "the Spirit" was actually the Voice of God? The evidence was: First, someone I respected had told me that it was so. Second, it was an integral part of what I had been raised to believe, and I wanted to believe it. That was it. But those are weak reasons, insufficient to justify such an important and specific claim. And instead of strong evidence confirming that those feelings were the Spirit, there was evidence that those feelings were internally generated, that the Church creates a huge infrastructure designed to lead minds toward preferred conclusions, and that certain conditions can reliably produce the feeling that I'd misidentified. I have no doubt that brother D. believed what he was telling us, but belief doesn't make a thing true.

When people speak of testimonies, I know what they're talking about. They're saying that they associate that feeling that I've felt many times, which I still feel often, with a particular piece of religious doctrine, and that this feeling is evidence that the thing is true. They say the words "I know." Two questions seem relevant: First, are emotional experiences a good way for other people to determine whether something is true? And second, how do you know that what you felt is the Spirit?

Quinn

[_sleepyhead]

hello Quinn,

My present understanding of instinct is that it is concerned with the survival of the individual and the species. As part of that agenda it provides whatever an individual (either human or animal) needs to live within his respective community. It also provides what is necesary for the individual to evolve. That's why people form inflated egos of there purpose in life with regards to possible future greatness. Instinct was never designed to be used for information about past civilizations or to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Those who use it for that purpose are setting themselves up for disapointment.

[_Quinn]

Instinct was never designed to be used for information about past civilizations or to unlock the mysteries of the universe.

Hi Sleepyhead, thanks for the reply. I agree that instinct was never "meant" to have those effects on us. The only thing that really gets selected for is greater immediate reproductive success. That's not to say we can't build marvelous futures and do great things. But we get there by working with what actually is.

[_Stormy Waters]

Good first post. I too have felt the 'spirit' in various contexts where it didn't make sense. I've even felt in while reading material critical of the church. Realistically, our emotions are not a reliable way to determine truth.
I look forward to future posts by you.

[_Samantabhadra]

Quinn,

I wouldn't throw everything out. It sounds like you have some natural aptitude for and interest in contemplative practice. You will never be able to develop that aptitude or interest inside LDS, because there are no Mormons who are qualified to distinguish between genuine spiritual experiences and mere emotion. There are, however, individuals in other faith traditions who are capable of leading disciples to genuine realization. If you haven't already, I would highly recommend reading some of the works of Thomas Merton. Are you familiar with him?

Best,

--S

[_MCB]

I would highly recommend reading some of the works of Thomas Merton.

Seconded.

[_Tobin]

The whole "feelings" thing is garbage. Go have a real experience with God or get out. Indigestion is a terrible way to determine the truth of anything but food poisoning.

[_keithb]

The whole "feelings" thing is garbage. Go have a real experience with God or get out. Indigestion is a terrible way to determine the truth of anything but food poisoning.

And your criteria for a "real experience" with God would be ... what?

There was a lady I met on my Mormon mission who claimed that the voices of angels and demons spoke to her from her television. In your estimation, did she have a "real experience" with God? How would a person tell the difference between a real and imaginary experience?

Please, enlighten us.

[_Tobin]

The whole "feelings" thing is garbage. Go have a real experience with God or get out. Indigestion is a terrible way to determine the truth of anything but food poisoning.

And your criteria for a "real experience" with God would be ... what?

There was a lady I met on my Mormon mission who claimed that the voices of angels and demons spoke to her from her television. In your estimation, did she have a "real experience" with God? How would a person tell the difference between a real and imaginary experience?

Please, enlighten us.

Joseph Smith and others in the scriptures claimed to see God, angels and have Gold Plates land in their laps on a regular basis. If that isn't happening to you, I guess you are either doing it wrong or it is complete non-sense.

[_SteelHead]

My wife's aunt routinely has visions and entertains angels.... But is some kind of EV. Does that count?

And I regularly take walks with Exu.