Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_gdemetz]

OK Grindale, you think you can be a great prophet?! Then prophesy for us?! Share your great prophetic skills with us, and don't deprive us of that! Maybe you can predict something like the Civil war starting in South Carolina!

[_SteelHead]

Oh great. Now gd and his overuse of !!!!!!!! has entered the fray.

Gd, did you every really look at that civil war prophecy? Seeing grindael's proficiency, I am looking forward to his reply to your gauntlet.

[_Tobin]

Oh great. Now gd and his overuse of !!!!!!!! has entered the fray.

Gd, did you every really look at that civil war prophecy? Seeing grindael's proficiency, I am looking forward to his reply to your gauntlet.

grindael, because he's just a teenage kid, wasn't even aware there were two world wars fought after the civil war till I told him. gdemtez should be about his speed.

[_grindael]

OK Grindale, you think you can be a great prophet?! Then prophesy for us?! Share your great prophetic skills with us, and don't deprive us of that! Maybe you can predict something like the Civil war starting in South Carolina!

If you are going to reply to someone, at least take the time to spell their name correctly. Where did I say I can be a great prophet? Where did I say that I have "prophetic skills"? And what is a "great" prophet? Is there some kind of grading system that I'm not aware of?

I don't think that there will be another Civil War that will start in South Carolina, so that's something I would definitely not prophecy about.

[_grindael]

grindael, because he's just a teenage kid, wasn't even aware there were two world wars fought after the civil war till I told him. gdemtez should be about his speed.

Still trolling I see.

[_jo1952]

Jo, Good job being patient and methodical. I’ve been a Mormon you know. I’m very familiar with the Bible and with the teachings of Jesus.

Hello Grindael,

I have not been LDS all of my life. We do not need to go through my life's history, however, as Truth is Truth - no matter our circumstances, world view, upbringing, traditions, etc. More importantly, Truth is Truth wherever we may find it.

I have found that those who claim that there are “many layers of understanding the Bible and the Holy Canon” are really trying to justify teachings that aren’t in the Bible (which is the Holy Canon to Christians). As for what I quoted above, feel free to elaborate on any of it and give your “alternate” “spiritual” explanation. But since you are not a Mormon “authority” and can’t speak for the church, I’ll go with the guys who claim they are and can.

Then you have not understood the very quotations from Paul which you used in your post to me. Let us look at 1 Cor Chapter 3, which at first blush would appear to completely contradict what Paul taught in Chapter 2. However, with the help of the Holy Spirit, a person will be able to understand what he was saying and why he needed to say it:

1 Corinthians 3 (KJV) (emphasis is mine)

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Paul was obviously teaching to people at various levels of understanding. Inasmuch as we have what Paul taught to members of the church who WERE able to understand, as well as those who were NOT able to understand anything beyond a milk understanding, I offer that therein lie some of the various layers of understanding I am talking about. Those with the eyes to see will be those who have laboured to understand because they have not spent their time 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The mystery/ies of God are hidden from those who are blind to them. Even as basically as those who not yet ready to "believe" will not be able to "hear" the Gospel message....let alone understand everything that is held within the Gospel message. As we receive more and more Truth, things we used to be blind to will become very clear to us. Many of those mysteries are contained within Jesus' teachings and the teachings of the Apostles. There are also mysteries which had not yet been taught by Jesus.

I’m sorry, where? The office of a Patriarch?

I think in your anger, you are not able to stay focused on where my responses were pointing. I was pointing to the paragraph wherein Joseph Smith said unless a person has revelation, he cannot speak with the spirit of prophecy.

So? I’m aware of what Jesus said,

So, I was supporting what Joseph Smith had said. You are the one who appears to disagree with Joseph Smith said. And yet now you are telling me you are aware of what Jesus said. Joseph Smith's words were in agreement with what Jesus said.

Notice that Jesus says that “and he will tell you what is yet to come”.

What is your interpretation of "and he will tell you what is yet to come"? I see several layers of understanding. I would like to hear yours, as I think you only see one layer. However, I want to make sure that I am reading you correctly. What you have to say in your answer to that question will help explain why you believe as you do about the LDS Leaders.

What church do you go to now? In your opinion do they prophesy of things to come in accordance with your interpretation of "and he will tell you what is yet to come"? Can you share some of the things which you have had personally revealed to you about what is yet to come?

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I find it interesting that since Christ's Ascension, it is the Spirit who bears witness in earth; and NOT the Word. It is also only the Spirit who is mentioned in both verses. It does not appear to me that your understanding of the Spirit agrees with this teaching. I thought that I would also use 1 John since that is the book you are using to present your interpretation of the Comforter.

How long did it take your church to decide and vote on the doctrine they would teach? Now, since the Holy Spirit "leads" to all Truth, I would be truly amazed if their understanding did not take time to evolve and be added upon. To be fair in assessing the length of time and how many votes were taken, you would need to go back in history to the time Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth.

“There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it. The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places--its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the Bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political. We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body. We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man's labor be given him.”

If you hadn't told me that it was Joseph Smith who wrote these words, I would have likened them to the words spoken by Early Church Fathers. I can only ascertain you find them so offensive because it IS Joseph Smith who said them, even though the ancient church was faced with the very same problems.

The problem with Mormonism, is that it has never been consistent. This makes one doubt the veracity of those who proclaim themselves prophets and apostles of Jesus.

It is true they are not in a state of stasis. Being led to all Truth takes progression and time. Since all churches behave in this manner, it is important for each of us to personally be sincerely and earnestly seeking, studying, praying, and specifically asking God for the ability to discern the Holy Spirit so that we can stay as on-course as possible in our journey. There have always been, and there will always be false teachers and false prophets among us. The powers of darkness will never cease to cause us to stumble or fall. So we must constantly seek for and be prepared for the Light in order to release ourselves from darkness.

There are many Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, etc., who teach from their pulpits. It has been my experience that not many are teaching with the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, they are not teaching with revelation. They are teaching what they were taught when they went to school to become a Minister, a Pastor, a Bishop, etc.; and those teachings were of man. Unless they have received personal revelation about the Truth of what they are teaching, then they are not teaching with the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, without revelation a.k.a. the spirit of prophecy. They are only teaching, at most, in accordance with someone else's testimony, and there is no spirit of prophecy in them.

Are you speaking of Mormon “apostles” and “prophets” and “patriarchs”? If so, I heartily agree.

Do those who now teach you from the pulpit teach with the spirit of prophecy in them? Or are they only teaching what they were taught by other men? Are you able to tell the difference? Paul taught us that we could tell the difference; but he qualified this teaching with our ability to be taught about the spiritual and not the carnal, i.e., carnal being equated with a milk understanding, and spiritual being equated with a meat understanding.

And yet, one of the major objections I hear about such works as the Journal of Discourses is that they were given “off the cuff” so to speak. As a matter of fact, one of your “apostles”, makes your point perfectly clear. He said,

Are you basing your above statement on hearsay, or have you actually read within the Journal of Discourses that LDS Leaders claim they were teaching doctrine "off the cuff"? If it is hearsay, then there is no credibility in your words. If you have personally read this, I would like to see some examples.

This makes it perfectly clear that Mormon “apostles” understood perfectly what they were doing, and the importance of their claims of prophetic inspiration when they spoke in public.

Isn't this the same thing the ancient Apostles understood? In fact, when they were speaking something that was their personal opinion, they would say so.....or at least that is the example with which Paul would speak when he was speaking his own personal thoughts as opposed to what the Holy Spirit was inspiring him to say.

As for “those who hear”, Marion G. Romney said,

“What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time. He knows why he inspired Brother Joseph F. Merrill to give the talk he just gave. He knows why he inspired the other brethren who have talked in this conference to say what they have said. It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)

Again, isn't this the same thing Paul taught? Paul just used different words. Actually, Paul's words seemed a little more harsh: 1 Cor 3: 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Being able to “hear” doesn’t change what they said. You must “agree”, or it is YOU that is “out of harmony”. Common sense rules above all, but not in cults. Men like David Koresh make this perfectly clear. Is this the road you really want to go down?

Please refer to my previous paragraph. Also, you appear to be so alarmed about people being manipulated in order that they will go down a wrong road. I have faith in Jesus' teachings; I have faith that it is the Holy Spirit guiding me and revealing more and more Truth to me because of the experiencing of the Holy Spirit I have enjoyed.

You need to put your mind at ease for those circumstances where you think someone is being led down the wrong road. Jesus taught that our righteousness is counted in accordance with our faithfulness to what we believe to be true. He did not say that we had to be correct. It is the leaders who have knowingly changed scripture and teach as doctrine the commandments of men who will be held accountable for doing so.

We are actually given the means to understand the Bible from the Bible itself. Paul said,

I do so love Paul's teachings!!! I added the third chapter of 1 Cor to what you had already shared, because I felt it was necessary to clarify your own understanding of what Paul was teaching. Just because someone does believe, does not mean that they can understand the Bible. Don’t forget that Paul was speaking to members of the church when he rebuked them for still being so carnal that they were not yet ready to be taught at a spiritual level.

Paul plainly states that “we may understand”. So the question becomes, who has the Spirit or the truth? Paul again said,

13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. (1 Thessalonians 2 NIV)

I will repeat, just because a person believes, does not mean he has a spiritual understanding. Is the Holy Spirit working inside those who believe? Absolutely, IF that person allows it take place. The changing does not instantly take place; it progresses over time and in accordance with the amount of effort we put into our continuing to sincerely seek. It takes MORE than believing. Believing is just the beginning of a person’s journey; and that journey does not become one which includes spiritual understanding until certain requirements are met as Paul has taught.

Those who believe. Those pastors you are so sure have no inspiration, BELIEVE. And they have something else, the Word of God to use as a guide. As Paul told Timothy,

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy NIV)

The Holy Scriptures which Timothy had known from infancy were the books of the Old Testament. His mother was Jewish and had taught him scripture according to Jewish tradition. I bring this up because I am not sure you were aware of Timothy’s background. I also bring it up because I believe there were many, many faithful Jews who had studied the Old Testament all of their lives. Paul was one of them. So, how is it that Paul, who was a Pharisee, in his devotion to God was persecuting the saints, and did not recognize or know that Jesus was the promised Messiah? As such, it will appear at first blush that Paul is teaching Timothy something he himself had missed even though I am sure he was well versed from his own infancy in the Old Testament scriptures. What are your thoughts on this?

A servant of God is not thoroughly equipped until they can speak with the power of the Holy Spirit. They cannot speak with the power of the Holy Spirit without a meat understanding which they have personally been taught by the Holy Spirit. They can repeat what someone else has taught them all day long; without having spiritual knowledge which has been revealed to them personally by the Holy Spirit, they cannot even know spiritually if what they are speaking is Truth or falsehood. Likewise, the listener cannot know if what he is hearing is Truth or falsehood unless he has the help of the Holy Spirit.

My experience with those pastors I spoke of absolutely loved God, and they believed. They often spoke their words with a great deal of emotion and passion. I do not believe they were teaching at a spiritual level. However, I never held this against them. They were teaching what they knew; and what they knew had been taught to them by man. Had they received a witness from the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ? Yes. Were they being faithful to what they thought was true? Yes. Does that prove that what they were teaching was actually Truth? No.

It is the Holy Scriptures (the Bible) and faith in Jesus that will make us wise for salvation, as Paul puts it.

Yet the very same Old Testament Holy Scriptures which Paul actually pointed to had not made him wise for salvation. It took a supernatural event to get Paul’s (Saul’s) attention; i.e., his road to Damascus experience. Please explain this contradiction of Paul’s own words where they concern his own personal experiences.

But we are also warned about Paul’s (or for that matter any teaching),

16 …His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. (2 Peter NIV)

Indeed, scripture can be hard to understand. There are many passages which I still don’t understand. However, I continue to be diligent in seeking Truth and have faith that someday I will understand them. Without the help of the Holy Spirit, I will not be able to have their Truth revealed to me.

Therefore, the risen Jesus told John,

2 These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate[/b]. 7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2 NIV)

Maybe I missed something there. I know it is your agenda to try to prove that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet of God and that the LDS Church is false. You seem very concerned that this will damage our ability to be saved, yes? However, as I read the above, I cannot help but notice that even though the members of the church at Ephesus had tested and found false apostles, they were still in danger; that they should consider “how far you have fallen”. In fact, if they did not repent, the lampstand would be removed from its place. In other words, their lampstand (the church of Ephesus) will be removed from Heaven. So, apparently, testing and identifying false apostles was not enough to keep them from falling far. Can you explain how it is that they STILL fell? And how it is they had fallen so far?

How do we test those that claim to be apostles? By the scriptures, as the Bereans did,

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed…(Acts 17 NIV)

Again, Paul and Silas have gone to preach the Gospel to the Jews; remember, the Jews never had Apostles. Therefore, it was the Old Testament which the Bereans had studied. They were considered more noble than those in Thessalonica because they “received the word with all readiness of mind, and they searched the scriptures daily (so we don’t know for sure how long it took before they believed) to see if what Paul and Silas were teaching “were so”.

Thus, it appears that they not only studied the scriptures to try to discover if what Paul and Silas were teaching “were so”; they also had “all readiness of mind”. What do you think having “all readiness of mind” means?

I’m sure you have heard this all before. I reject Joseph Smith, and therefore his church, because his teachings do not line up with what the scriptures teach (the Bible). It doesn’t matter if it is “official” or “voted upon” it is what these men taught from the pulpit where as Moses Thatcher stated, they MUST have the inspiration of the Spirit, or just shut up. The problem is, those men were so arrogant in their "authority" that they couldn't just shut up, much to the embarrassment of the church.

I think I have discussed the need of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and what that looks like, as opposed to what you think it looks like. I have also discussed how progressing from a milk/carnal to a meat/spiritual understanding is necessary in order to teach with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There were no LDS people until the LDS Church was established. The membership came from many different denominations where they had already acquired pre-conceived notions and beliefs which had to be unlearned; perhaps they had even learned them from infancy, just like Paul had. It took time to put aside the old teachings they had been taught. I believe this is manifested in the very problem you are identifying. What you have not realized is this problem was not founded in the LDS Church; it was founded from whatever denomination they originally came from. In fact, Paul even addresses this problem in the ancient church wherein members needed to be reminded of sticking to and remaining faithful to the doctrine he had taught them.

That’s just tripe, and you know it. I was a Mormon for many years. I totally understand the plan of salvation and that men go to the spirit world. Those blessings don’t speak of that. They speak of being on the earth alive in their mortal bodies when these things are supposed to happen. Your “explanation” here is totally ridiculous. Again, explain Woodruff’s blessing which specifically states, “Thou shalt stand in the flesh & witness the winding up scene of this generation. Thou shalt remain on the earth to behold thy Savior Come in the Clouds of heaven.”

Again, I think your anger toward the Church is clouding your ability to see the words I have written. I will repeat the last sentence and then expand on it for you: What you cannot see are any future incarnations at which time(s) any unfulfilled prophecies of the Patriarchal Blessing come to fruition.

Multiple probations (a.k.a. reincarnations) allow the same spirit to enter a new physical body. Therefore, that same spirit will eventually be in a body where the prophecies of a Patriarchal blessing will be fulfilled. As such, Wilford Woodruff’s spirit can very easily “remain on the earth to behold thy Savior Come in the Clouds of heaven.” His spirit will just be in a different physical body when this takes place.

There is yet another layer of understanding to be had in Patriarchal Blessings which may appear to you or others to have unfulfilled prophecies in them. I believe that each spirit must experience the events described in the Book of Revelation in order to progress to Exaltation. There is no time limit placed on a spirit as to when this process must be completed. Should they happen to achieve it while they are in the same body which they occupied when their Patriarchal Blessing was given, then they will experience their Resurrection at that time. Thus they will see the Savior Come in the Clouds of heaven, because their spirit is ascending into Exaltation before the earth completes her own end times prophecies. by the way, this is all supportable by the teachings in the Bible for those who have the eyes to see it.

Once you understand that each spirit needs to go through the events of the Book of Revelation in their own personal journey, and that God allows multiple probations/incarnations, for us to progress to perfection and receive ALL Truth, many teachings in the Bible will become understandable. Also, you will perceive what you now think are unfulfilled prophecies, with the new eyes of spiritual understanding.

Many blessings to you,

jo

[_jo1952]

It's actually only the fantasy of an end to existence that gives me hope. An eternity of being, with no way out, is the kind of existential hell that only a truly demented supreme being would dream up. The possibility of an end to everything is, paradoxically, heavenly.

Hi Morley,

As long as we are separated spiritually from God (i.e., experiencing spiritual death), we ARE in "hell".

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Tobin,
Instead of waiting for vindication in the afterlife, I have decided to be the bestest person NOW that I can. To fiercely love my wife and children and to be excellent to my fellow man.

The idea that after this life may be just a dirt nap no longer scares me. As long as my children and wife love me NOW then it will all be fine.

That was beautiful Steelhead! I wish that all of us could get into that same mind set!!

Love,

jo

[_grindael]

grindael said:

I have found that those who claim that there are “many layers of understanding the Bible and the Holy Canon” are really trying to justify teachings that aren’t in the Bible (which is the Holy Canon to Christians). As for what I quoted above, feel free to elaborate on any of it and give your “alternate” “spiritual” explanation. But since you are not a Mormon “authority” and can’t speak for the church, I’ll go with the guys who claim they are and can.

jo said:

Then you have not understood the very quotations from Paul which you used in your post to me.

That’s your opinion, and I can say the same about you.

There are also mysteries which had not yet been taught by Jesus.

I'm sure there were. Your point?

I think in your anger, you are not able to stay focused on where my responses were pointing. I was pointing to the paragraph wherein Joseph Smith said unless a person has revelation, he cannot speak with the spirit of prophecy.

Who is angry? Is that how you perceive critics who answer questions directly? I left the church 30 years ago. I find many Mormons accuse ex-Mormons of being "angry" or "bitter" and then use this as an excuse to say someone is “contentious” and therefore can’t have the “Holy Ghost” (as Mormons are fond of calling it). Therefore we don't understand "scripture" or what Mormonism really teaches. Contending is not of the devil, in fact, it is encouraged in the Doctrine and Covenants.

And Smith taught more than one principal in that quote. Here it is again.

"Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 160.)

I’m aware that part of what he said is from the Bible. But Joseph Smith has it wrong. I used the quote because according to Smith, Patriarchs must be prophets because they have the "spirit of prophecy", something that the person I was answering just couldn’t seem to grasp. ("I believe grindael believes patriarchs are prophets", he said). The quote was used in response to that argument, therefore, maybe it was you that was not quite focused on what I originally said.

Salvation cannot come without revelation (yes, the revelation of Jesus Christ). This revelation, would eventually go to the Gentiles, which was a "mystery" according to Paul:

7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. (Ephesians 3) http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/mystery.html

Still, according to the Bible, it is not “revelation” that allows one to prophecy, it is the Holy Spirit. Prophecy is a gift of the spirit. John actually uses the phrase four times in the Book of Revelation:

1. Revelation 1:1,2 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."
2. Revelation 1:9 "I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God andthe testimony of Jesus."
3. Revelation 12:17 "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring – those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
4. Revelation 19:10 "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’ "

Those that have the Holy Spirit, have the testimony of Jesus. It can also be the Spirit of Prophecy because one of the gifts of the Spirit is Prophecy. One may have the Holy Spirit and not have the prophetic gift. This is explained by Paul:

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.(1 Corinthians 12)

Smith obviously did not understand this, teaching that anyone who had the testimony of Jesus must be a prophet. This is not found in the Bible. It is up to the Holy Spirit which gift is given to each individual, that is why being “ordained” a prophet, seer & revelator is also un-Biblical. We do not determine what gifts the Spirit gives. That is arrogant, and contradicts what the real authorized servants of Jesus taught.

So, I was supporting what Joseph Smith had said. You are the one who appears to disagree with Joseph Smith said. And yet now you are telling me you are aware of what Jesus said. Joseph Smith's words were in agreement with what Jesus said.

See above.

What is your interpretation of "and he will tell you what is yet to come"? I see several layers of understanding. I would like to hear yours, as I think you only see one layer. However, I want to make sure that I am reading you correctly. What you have to say in your answer to that question will help explain why you believe as you do about the LDS Leaders.

I can only tell you what the Bible says. Its right there in the verses I quoted, Jesus said,“the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” and that includes “what is yet to come”.

What church do you go to now?

I’m a non-denominational Christian.

[I find it interesting that since Christ's Ascension, it is the Spirit who bears witness in earth; and NOT the Word. It is also only the Spirit who is mentioned in both verses. It does not appear to me that your understanding of the Spirit agrees with this teaching. I thought that I would also use 1 John since that is the book you are using to present your interpretation of the Comforter.

What does Paul mean by “But we have the mind of Christ.”?

How long did it take your church to decide and vote on the doctrine they would teach? Now, since the Holy Spirit "leads" to all Truth, I would be truly amazed if their understanding did not take time to evolve and be added upon. To be fair in assessing the length of time and how many votes were taken, you would need to go back in history to the time Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth.

The Bible is what we teach. No one voted on anything. We teach the Bible because it is the Word of God. What does voting have to do with anything? What do you mean by you need to go back in history to the time of Jesus to assess voting? Who are you to dictate at what speed someone learns? I'm sure there are people that study for years and years, that don't learn much, and people that only study a few months and know more. By their fruits you will know them, not by length of time.

If you hadn't told me that it was Joseph Smith who wrote these words, I would have likened them to the words spoken by Early Church Fathers. I can only ascertain you find them so offensive because it IS Joseph Smith who said them, even though the ancient church was faced with the very same problems.

Who said I was “offended” by them? I used them to illustrate a point that the Lectures on Faith were official church doctrine, (approved by Smith). Didn’t you understand the context of the quote?

It is true they are not in a state of stasis. Being led to all Truth takes progression and time. Since all churches behave in this manner, it is important for each of us to personally be sincerely and earnestly seeking, studying, praying, and specifically asking God for the ability to discern the Holy Spirit so that we can stay as on-course as possible in our journey. There have always been, and there will always be false teachers and false prophets among us. The powers of darkness will never cease to cause us to stumble or fall. So we must constantly seek for and be prepared for the Light in order to release ourselves from darkness.

Smith originally taught that the Father was a spirit and that he came to earth as Jesus Christ, and that the Holy Ghost is the mind of God. The Mormon Church now teaches something totally different. This means that Smith’s first vision was an invention, for the Father (according to the Lectures on Faith) took on a body as Jesus to die for men’s sins. Did you even read the quote? You don’t even mention it. Your answer above is only a generic statement that does not address this contradiction.

Are you basing your above statement on hearsay, or have you actually read within the Journal of Discourses that LDS Leaders claim they were teaching doctrine "off the cuff"? If it is hearsay, then there is no credibility in your words. If you have personally read this, I would like to see some examples.

Well, concerning Brigham Young, Hugh Nibley wrote,

“No man ever spoke his mind more frankly on all subjects; all his days he strove to communicate his inmost feelings, unburdening himself without the aid of notes or preparation in a vigorous and forthright prose that was the purest anti-rhetoric.” [Hugh Nibley, BYU Studies, Vol. 11, No. 1, Autumn 1970, p.61-62] As for others, I know from research and reading many diaries and journals, and there is a great book out about George D. Watt by one of his descendants (who researched him for 30 years) that explains the whole process of how the Journals were put together, how the speeches were approved afterwards by each speaker, and how they were given. It is called The Mormon Passage of George D. Watt by Ronald G. Watt.

grindael said:
This makes it perfectly clear that Mormon “apostles” understood perfectly what they were doing, and the importance of their claims of prophetic inspiration when they spoke in public.

Jo said:
Isn't this the same thing the ancient Apostles understood? In fact, when they were speaking something that was their personal opinion, they would say so.....or at least that is the example with which Paul would speak when he was speaking his own personal thoughts as opposed to what the Holy Spirit was inspiring him to say.

You are correct, but please pay attention to the context of that reply by me. It was in response to the premise that Mormon “authorities” spoke opinion much of the time. Your answer doesn't address why Mormon "authorities" would not do as Paul did, designate in their letters and speeches that something was their personal opinion. Mormon "authorities" seldom do this.

Again, isn't this the same thing Paul taught? Paul just used different words. Actually, Paul's words seemed a little more harsh: 1 Cor 3: 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Again, context. Romney said what was said in Conference are the words Jesus would say if he were there. That is what the Journal of Discourses are, mostly Conference addresses. It is not the concept of speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit that I am disagreeing with, but that Mormon "authorities" were so clueless that they just spouted off opinion much of the time. Mormon “authorities” were well aware of what it meant to teach by the "Holy Ghost", and said so. If this is true, then they were inspired, and if that is so, then what they said, according to the D&C, was scripture. And Romney said nothing about “milk” and “meat”. He said that the words that are given to the “saints” by Mormon “authorities” were inspired and what Jesus would say if he were here. That means that doctrines like the “curse of cain” were not folklore, but the words of Jesus to the Mormon church.

Please refer to my previous paragraph. Also, you appear to be so alarmed about people being manipulated in order that they will go down a wrong road. I have faith in Jesus' teachings; I have faith that it is the Holy Spirit guiding me and revealing more and more Truth to me because of the experiencing of the Holy Spirit I have enjoyed.

You need to put your mind at ease for those circumstances where you think someone is being led down the wrong road. Jesus taught that our righteousness is counted in accordance with our faithfulness to what we believe to be true. He did not say that we had to be correct. It is the leaders who have knowingly changed scripture and teach as doctrine the commandments of men who will be held accountable for doing so.

I agree with your last statement about leaders. That is exactly what Mormon leaders do. But they say otherwise. Again, Marion G. Romney, as related by Ezra Taft Benson,

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home. . . .Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: “My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.” Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, “But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.” [In Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78]

If you are not alarmed by this, you need to be. Why would someone even say such a thing? Also, according to your logic, if I believe that robbing a bank is ok, and I'm faithful to that, then I'm ok with Jesus? You can see that there has to be more to it than that.

I do so love Paul's teachings!!! I added the third chapter of 1 Cor to what you had already shared, because I felt it was necessary to clarify your own understanding of what Paul was teaching. Just because someone does believe, does not mean that they can understand the Bible. Don’t forget that Paul was speaking to members of the church when he rebuked them for still being so carnal that they were not yet ready to be taught at a spiritual level.

That didn’t mean that they didn’t understand the scriptures. Here is Paul again,

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. (Galatians 2)

This was about “jealousy and quarreling among you” (being worldly) and being led astray by false teachers, and this is the crux of the message in Corinthians 3. That is why Paul is so emphatic about preaching Christ crucified, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2) And though this “was a stumbling block” to Jews and Gentiles, when taught plainly it was understood by those that opened themselves to the spirit. The ten commandments were simple, and plainly understood. It was the mystery of Jesus, that was hard to understand, but the “scriptures” at the time were the law and the prophets, which was well understood by the Jews. (except for some regulation fanaticism by some sects) The problem arose over interpretation, that the Gentiles must be circumcised.

The Corinthians were people who were not quite ready to “live by the spirit”. The Gentiles did not have the law, and had to learn to live by the spirit. They obviously understood what they were taught, but they were new and weak, and divided by false teachers, those Paul called “super apostles” and “the Circumcision Group”. He tells the Galatians,

“I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.”

I understand perfectly what Paul was teaching, and I don’t need your clarification.

“I will repeat, just because a person believes, does not mean he has a spiritual understanding. Is the Holy Spirit working inside those who believe? Absolutely, IF that person allows it take place. The changing does not instantly take place; it progresses over time and in accordance with the amount of effort we put into our continuing to sincerely seek. It takes MORE than believing. Believing is just the beginning of a person’s journey; and that journey does not become one which includes spiritual understanding until certain requirements are met as Paul has taught.”

I will also repeat, I said they understood the scriptures and what they said. Then there is conviction. You can read something and understand it, but to live it, you must be convicted. The word of God can only work in those who have faith and believe. The Holy Spirit convicts us. You can be told right and wrong, (for example that adultery is wrong, and all the reasons why) but if you don’t believe it, you may have trouble living it. It doesn’t mean you don’t understand the concept.

The Holy Scriptures which Timothy had known from infancy were the books of the Old Testament. His mother was Jewish and had taught him scripture according to Jewish tradition. I bring this up because I am not sure you were aware of Timothy’s background. I also bring it up because I believe there were many, many faithful Jews who had studied the Old Testament all of their lives. Paul was one of them. So, how is it that Paul, who was a Pharisee, in his devotion to God was persecuting the saints, and did not recognize or know that Jesus was the promised Messiah? As such, it will appear at first blush that Paul is teaching Timothy something he himself had missed even though I am sure he was well versed from his own infancy in the Old Testament scriptures. What are your thoughts on this?

I told you I was familiar with the Bible, and as for Timothy. (See my comments above). Paul knew about the Messiah. Yet, he could not make the connection with Jesus because of the manner of his death. With Paul as with every other Jew, a crucified Messiah was not only an insult to his national-political messianic hopes, it was also ‘incomprehensible absurdity,’ since the Messiah was, almost by definition, one uniquely favored by God (Isa 11:2), whereas a hanged man was, according to the law, cursed by God (Dt 21:23).

“And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

A servant of God is not thoroughly equipped until they can speak with the power of the Holy Spirit. They cannot speak with the power of the Holy Spirit without a meat understanding which they have personally been taught by the Holy Spirit. They can repeat what someone else has taught them all day long; without having spiritual knowledge which has been revealed to them personally by the Holy Spirit, they cannot even know spiritually if what they are speaking is Truth or falsehood. Likewise, the listener cannot know if what he is hearing is Truth or falsehood unless he has the help of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that a servant of God is not thoroughly equipped without the Holy Spirit, and so do Mormon "authorities", yet, some Mormons continue to think that those who have served in the church for years and years would still not be so, and speak opinions, when they are ordained as "prophets, seers & revelators", and it is their main purpose in life to spread the gospel. Even Joseph Smith said that he was "accountable for every word I say". I'm sure it would have been the last thing on Paul's mind to think about having to do a press release about whether the church had an "official position" or not on something. He simply, in his letters said, (when he interjected opinion) this comes from me, as you mentioned above.

Limiting how to recognize the truth is simply naïve. For example, it doesn’t take the Holy Spirit to understand the Ten Commandments. Again, it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us to live what we read and understand. A few examples:

"that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" Ephesians 3:3-5

Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace. For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end" 2 Corinthians 1:12-13

"from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15

"For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them." Matthew 13:15

"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundred-fold, some sixty, and some thirty." Matthew 13:23

Almost all Christian Faiths say something about the Holy Spirit. It's not unique to Mormonism:

1. "Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word" (Westminster Confession of faith, 6:6)
2. If the Scriptures be a plain book, and the Spirit performs the functions of a teacher to all the children of God, it follows inevitably that they must agree in all essential matters in their interpretation of the Bible. And from that fact it follows that for an individual Christian to dissent from the faith of the universal Church (i.e., the body of true believers), is tantamount to dissenting from the Scriptures themselves. (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Presbyterian Calvinist, 1873, 1:184)
3. "By asserting the principle that Scripture is its own simplest, most certain, and direct interpreter, Luther sought to reverse this process and extract Scripture from the wrappings of commentaries and interpreters. The scriptures can be understood only through the Holy Spirit by whom they were written and this Spirit is nowhere to be found more living and present than in His own sacred writings." (John M. Headley, Luther's view of Church History, 1963, p 82)
4. "If we desire to provide in the best way for our consciences-that they may not be perpetually beset by the instability of doubt or vacillation, and that they may not also boggle at the smallest quibbles-we ought to seek our conviction in a higher place than human reasons, judgments, or conjectures, that is, in the secret testimony of the Spirit.... If we turn pure eyes and upright senses toward it, the majesty of God will immediately come to view, subdue our bold rejection, and compel us to obey." (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, I. vii. 4)
5. Let this point therefore stand: that those whom the Holy Spirit has inwardly taught truly rest upon Scripture, and that Scripture indeed is self-authenticated; hence, it is not right to subject it to proof and reasoning. And the certainty it deserves with us, it attains by the testimony of the Spirit.... We seek no proofs, no marks of genuineness upon which our judgment may lean; but we subject our judgment and wit to it as a thing far beyond any guesswork.... God, therefore, very rightly proclaims through Isaiah that the prophets, together with the whole people are witnesses to him; for they, instructed by prophecies, unhesitatingly held that God has spoken without deceit or ambiguity [Isa. 43]. Such then is a conviction that requires no reasons; such, a knowledge with which the best reason agrees-in which the mind truly reposes more securely and constantly than in any reasons; such, finally, a feeling that can be born only of heavenly revelation. I speak of nothing other than what each believer experiences within himself-though my words fall far beneath a just explanation of the matter. (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, I. vii. 4)
6. "In order for the Holy Spirit to speak through Scripture, some human agency must be involved, even if that human agent is simply one individual reading the text of Scripture. (The Shape Of Sola Scriptura, Keith A. Mathison, Reformed Protestant, 2001, p 246)
7. "It [the church] owes its whole authority to the fact that it is a common understanding of the written word, attained and preserved under that teaching of the Spirit, which secures to believers a competent knowledge of the plan of salvation therein revealed." (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Presbyterian Calvinist, 1873, 1:116)
8. "They who strive to build up firm faith in Scripture through disputation are doing things backwards.... [because] even if anyone clears God's Sacred Word from man's evil speaking, he will not at once imprint upon their hearts that certainty which piety requires. Since for unbelieving men religion seems to stand by opinion alone, they, in order not to believe anything foolishly or lightly, both wish and demand rational proof that Moses and the prophets spoke divinely. But I reply: the testimony of the Spirit is more excellent than all reason. For as God alone is a fit witness of himself in his Word, so also the Word will not find acceptance in men's hearts before it is sealed by the inward testimony of the Spirit. The same Spirit, therefore, who has spoken through the mouths of the prophets must penetrate into our hearts to persuade us that they faithfully proclaimed what had been divinely commanded." (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, I. vii. 4)
9. Luther taught that the Spirit accomplishes His work in the Church. The Spirit-inspired Word of God and the Spirit-indwelt people of God must be distinguished, but they cannot be artificially separated. (The Shape Of Sola Scriptura, Keith A. Mathison, Reformed Protestant, 2001, p 100)

Yet the very same Old Testament Holy Scriptures which Paul actually pointed to had not made him wise for salvation. It took a supernatural event to get Paul’s (Saul’s) attention; i.e., his road to Damascus experience. Please explain this contradiction of Paul’s own words where they concern his own personal experiences.

I explained this above. Obviously just the influence of Holy Spirit didn’t work on Paul, did it? It took a personal appearance by Jesus to wake him up. Again, Paul understood the scriptures, but would not open his mind to the possibility that the Messiah could be crucified. He had ears, but he would not hear. That didn’t mean that he didn’t understand what Stephen and others said, he just refused to believe it.

Indeed, scripture can be hard to understand. There are many passages which I still don’t understand. However, I continue to be diligent in seeking Truth and have faith that someday I will understand them. Without the help of the Holy Spirit, I will not be able to have their Truth revealed to me.

27 Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him (Matthew 27)

Does it take the Holy Spirit to understand that Jesus was crucified? Yes, there are things like visions (the Book of Revelation for example) that are hard to understand. But not the basics of how we can achieve salvation. That is easy to understand, but to achieve it, you must believe it, and you must have faith and be convicted by the Holy Spirit. That doesn’t mean that the Bible can’t be understood. What some people have problems with, is other's (or their own) interpretation of the Bible.

But no scripture is for private interpretation. Just because two people (or a religion) agree on one interpretation, doesn’t mean that their interpretation is correct. That is why Paul stuck to the basics, Jesus crucified. Regulations like tithing, word of wisdom, or doctrines like infant baptism, worshipping on a chosen day, transubstantiation, etc. don’t save you, and are the add-ons or interpretations of men. Belief in Jesus saves, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit changes the heart and gives us the power to live by the Spirit, not by the law.

We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God. (1 Corinthians 8:1)

Again, Paul and Silas have gone to preach the Gospel to the Jews; remember, the Jews never had Apostles. Therefore, it was the Old Testament which the Bereans had studied. They were considered more noble than those in Thessalonica because they “received the word with all readiness of mind, and they searched the scriptures daily (so we don’t know for sure how long it took before they believed) to see if what Paul and Silas were teaching “were so”.

Thus, it appears that they not only studied the scriptures to try to discover if what Paul and Silas were teaching “were so”; they also had “all readiness of mind”. What do you think having “all readiness of mind” means?

Having an open mind. I explained this above with regards to Paul. And "apostle" simply means messenger. John the Baptist was a messenger, and could therefore be considered an apostle, but not one of the 12. Paul was a messenger to the Gentiles, but not one of the 12. After Matthias, there were no more special witnesses needed. Paul didn't even qualify to be one of the 12.

I think I have discussed the need of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and what that looks like, as opposed to what you think it looks like. I have also discussed how progressing from a milk/carnal to a meat/spiritual understanding is necessary in order to teach with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There were no LDS people until the LDS Church was established. The membership came from many different denominations where they had already acquired pre-conceived notions and beliefs which had to be unlearned; perhaps they had even learned them from infancy, just like Paul had. It took time to put aside the old teachings they had been taught. I believe this is manifested in the very problem you are identifying. What you have not realized is this problem was not founded in the LDS Church; it was founded from whatever denomination they originally came from. In fact, Paul even addresses this problem in the ancient church wherein members needed to be reminded of sticking to and remaining faithful to the doctrine he had taught them.

What does it "look like"? I must have missed that. I’m not having a problem. I am comparing what is in the Bible to Mormonism. I have read and experienced what Mormonism teaches. What some were taught before they became Mormons has nothing to do with it. They may have adopted certain ideas into Mormonism from outside sources, (like Young and the Curse of Cain) yet, Young took that twisted doctrine and made it a revelation from God, and placed a restriction on a race of people because of the color of their skin. He did this while claiming to be a prophet and know the mind of God.

In the discussion above, it was mentioned and stressed that prophets don’t go to God with every little thing, and I agree. But that in turn, is then used to justify what Brigham Young did and others did or did not do. With Biblical prophets, the channel was open both ways. Jonah tried to run away from God, but couldn't. God called them, (they weren’t just ordained and then hope for the best). And in the New Testament times, prophecy was revealed to be a Spiritual Gift, under the auspices of the Holy Spirit, dispensed as God pleases, not dictated by a rule that the next guy in line will be the next prophet. And this idea that a prophet wouldn't know that something was wrong (like the curse of cain) because he didn't ask, is ludicrous.

Again, I think your anger toward the Church is clouding your ability to see the words I have written. I will repeat the last sentence and then expand on it for you: What you cannot see are any future incarnations at which time(s) any unfulfilled prophecies of the Patriarchal Blessing come to fruition.

Calling something tripe, is not evidence of anger. Where do you get that from? Nothing is clouding my ability to understand what was written. You saying so, doesn’t make what you say true.

Multiple probations (a.k.a. reincarnations) allow the same spirit to enter a new physical body. Therefore, that same spirit will eventually be in a body where the prophecies of a Patriarchal blessing will be fulfilled. As such, Wilford Woodruff’s spirit can very easily “remain on the earth to behold thy Savior Come in the Clouds of heaven.” His spirit will just be in a different physical body when this takes place.

Nice try, but that’s not what it says. It’s not the explanation that Woodruff himself gave about his own blessing.

There is yet another layer of understanding to be had in Patriarchal Blessings which may appear to you or others to have unfulfilled prophecies in them. I believe that each spirit must experience the events described in the Book of Revelation in order to progress to Exaltation. There is no time limit placed on a spirit as to when this process must be completed. Should they happen to achieve it while they are in the same body which they occupied when their Patriarchal Blessing was given, then they will experience their Resurrection at that time. Thus they will see the Savior Come in the Clouds of heaven, because their spirit is ascending into Exaltation before the earth completes her own end times prophecies. by the way, this is all supportable by the teachings in the Bible for those who have the eyes to see it.

Please support that with a doctrinal statement, to show that is Mormon doctrine, otherwise it’s only your speculation. It is definitely nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Once you understand that each spirit needs to go through the events of the Book of Revelation in their own personal journey, and that God allows multiple probations/incarnations, for us to progress to perfection and receive ALL Truth, many teachings in the Bible will become understandable. Also, you will perceive what you now think are unfulfilled prophecies, with the new eyes of spiritual understanding.

[/quote]
It’s never going to happen because that is something you made up. Again, I repeat what I said at the beginning,

I have found that many who claim that there are “layers of understanding the Bible and the Holy Canon” are usually trying to justify teachings that aren’t in the Bible, or come up with wild speculations to try and reinvent what was really said by Mormon “prophets” - be they “apostles” or “patriarchs”. You have proved my point adequately, sir.

You may want to lay off the practice of ascribing anger or offense to those who disagree with Mormonism. Except for that, I found your post interesting and informative.

[_SteelHead]

Grindael, I find you eloquent, well researched and well thought out.

Please dissect the Joseph Smith civil war prophecy so that I don't have to try to do so on my tiny smart phone keyboard.