Fulfilled Prophecy?

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_grindael
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _grindael »

Ok Jo,

I had to think about your last couple of paragraphs above before it finally dawned on me what you were talking about, with a little help from a friend who is knowledgeable about Fundamentalism (who refreshed my memory), I think I know where you were going with reincarnation. I do now recall many statements from "authorities" about re-incarnation, or Multiple Mortal Probations (as it is called by the Fundamentalists), and will have a detailed response to you in a day or so. I have to search through a lot of diary entries, and put them all together, but I now know exactly what you mean. Like Adam-god, it is a controversial doctrine, and the church split on it after the time of Joseph Fielding Smith. More later.
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _grindael »

OK Grindael, that is just my point. You can't prophesy, but you want to criticize a true prophet who has prophesied correctly! So tell me, what is the difference between you and those who have persecuted the true prophets since the world began!


29"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in other languages? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts." (~Paul, 1Corinthians 12)

2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully. (~Paul, Romans 12)

“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. (~John, Revelation 2)
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
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_jo1952
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _jo1952 »

Hello Grindael,

It is just silly for you to say that you are not angry. I can see that you are. For instance, here is a comment you made to me: “That’s just tripe, and you know it.” It doesn't really matter to me if an individual is angry or not; I get angry too. I am just concerned when our anger clouds our ability to understand what we are saying to each other. So let’s just move on.

The following comes from the link you provided; therefore it is your source:

“Ephesians 3:3-5:
... how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in a few words, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets ...

The mystery has been made known not only to Paul, but also to the apostles and prophets of the early church. The mystery has been revealed by the Spirit; and it is by the Spirit that the apostles and prophets receive an enlightened understanding of the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery is also revealed to the saints by the Spirit, through the teaching of the apostles and prophets:"


Now, when I asked you what your interpretation was for “and he will tell you what is yet to come”, you answered thus: I can only tell you what the Bible says. Its right there in the verses I quoted, Jesus said,“the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” and that includes “what is yet to come”. Therefore, in accordance with the very source you provided, you are contradicting yourself. In other words, if the Holy Spirit is giving you the spiritual understanding that you claim it is (also, refer to your argument about how there are NOT layered meanings in the Bible), then you would have been able to present an interpretation of “and he will tell you what is yet to come”. Not only that, but I would offer you should have been able to give some examples which you have personally experienced in order to support your interpretation. by the way, for you to try to claim that Paul was talking only about the type of prophecy which Apostles have received the gift of (as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit), then you are denying this particular teaching of Paul wherein he said “and he will tell you what is yet to come”, which was a message he was giving to all of the saints.

And so, I don’t think your claim is accurate wherein you said: I understand perfectly what Paul was teaching, and I don’t need your clarification.

You quoted from 1 Corinthians 12 after which you said:

Smith obviously did not understand this, teaching that anyone who had the testimony of Jesus must be a prophet. This is not found in the Bible. It is up to the Holy Spirit which gift is given to each individual, that is why being “ordained” a prophet, seer & revelator is also un-Biblical. We do not determine what gifts the Spirit gives. That is arrogant, and contradicts what the real authorized servants of Jesus taught.

Paul disagrees with you:

1 Corinthians 12:31 (KJV)
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
.

He teaches the people to earnestly covet the best gifts!!

However, I would hope that you will also read chapters 13 and 14, as Paul goes on to expand his teaching.

1 Corinthians 13:7-13 (KJV)

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Indeed, it IS difficult to understand Paul’s teachings! Now, read this:

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (KJV)

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but (i.e., also, and, moreover) rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


Why would Paul teach the members to desire the spiritual gift of prophesy? Did he want them to seek for something in vain?

The Corinthians were people who were not quite ready to “live by the spirit”. The Gentiles did not have the law, and had to learn to live by the spirit. They obviously understood what they were taught, but they were new and weak, and divided by false teachers, those Paul called “super apostles” and “the Circumcision Group”.


Actually, in 1 Corinthians Chapter 3, Paul is NOT talking about false teachers….unless you think Paul and Apollos were false teachers….

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, could not speak (i.e., preach) unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


In other words, Paul was not sharing anything spiritual with them yet. So, if he had not yet spoken to them of what was spiritual versus what was carnal, how could they “understand” what Paul had not taught them yet? Paul certainly was NOT telling them they were divided because they were listening to false teachers. He is talking to them about the envying, the strife, and the divisions among them because some felt they were better than others because Paul had been the one who brought them into the church; while others felt they were better than others because Apollos had been the one who brought them into the church. In other words just like all of the various denominations which we see today…..including the “non-denominational” church which you attend.

The reason I point to all of this is because there ARE many layers of understanding to be had in the Bible. Also, we are all on our own private journey back to God. No two of us is at the very same point; and so, we will have different understandings and interpretations of what the Bible has taught us.

Now, you have also claimed that the non-denominational church you attend teaches what the Bible teaches. Isn’t that the same claim of ALL denominations in Christendom? Which “version” of Biblical teachings does your church teach that makes them “correct”, and the others “incorrect”? Does your church teach Orthodox beliefs? Do they teach heterodox beliefs? If they are heterodox, then they are most likely not considered to be Christian beliefs by mainstream Christianity. If they ARE Orthodox beliefs, then indeed your beliefs HAVE BEEN voted upon through the years, ever since the ancient church was established.

I am going to repeat part of my last post, as I feel it is extremely important. The first paragraph was one you quoted to me.

Therefore, the risen Jesus told John,

2 These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate[/b]. 7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2 NIV)


To which I responded (and I have changed the color of the text I particularly would like to have you respond to; or at least, admit to):

“Maybe I missed something there. I know it is your agenda to try to prove that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet of God and that the LDS Church is false. You seem very concerned that this will damage our ability to be saved, yes? However, as I read the above, I cannot help but notice that even though the members of the church at Ephesus had tested and found false apostles, they were still in danger; that they should consider “how far you have fallen”. In fact, if they did not repent, the lampstand would be removed from its place. In other words, their lampstand (the church of Ephesus) will be removed from Heaven. So, apparently, testing and identifying false apostles was not enough to keep them from falling far. Can you explain how it is that they STILL fell? And how it is they had fallen so far?”

I hope that it will be obvious to you and to other readers that your agenda to try to prove that the LDS Church is a false church, or that the Apostles or the Prophets are false, really has little to do with anyone’s personal ability to be saved; no matter which side of the fence they are on with regards to the LDS Church (or any church or world religion for that matter). Thus, other than initially presenting your/our concerns so that all of us can be as well informed as possible when we make decisions as to which church we hang our hat on, we can also see that even if we are able to identify “false prophets”, it is our personal relationship with God which does matter. Therefore, for you to continue in this agenda you appear to be so driven in, indicates to me that you do not understand what the Bible is teaching to the extent that you have so far claimed to understand it.

It is our love for God, which is manifested in our ability to keep the two great commandments which keeps us on the right path. It is the Holy Spirit who opens our minds and our hearts, and who touches our spirit, so that we can be led to all Truth (i.e., have Truth revealed to us; a.k.a. revelation), eventually to be able to see the Kingdom of God, and become Exalted.

As far as how reincarnation is taught in the Bible, I have extensive information which I have posted in the thread which I started called “Some of my beliefs….jo1952” (also on the Celestial forum). Rather than make this post any longer, you can find a lot of information in that thread. It is only two pages long; and there is a lot of information in various posts.

Blessings,

jo
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
_jo1952
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _jo1952 »

grindael wrote:Ok Jo,

I had to think about your last couple of paragraphs above before it finally dawned on me what you were talking about, with a little help from a friend who is knowledgeable about Fundamentalism (who refreshed my memory), I think I know where you were going with reincarnation. I do now recall many statements from "authorities" about re-incarnation, or Multiple Mortal Probations (as it is called by the Fundamentalists), and will have a detailed response to you in a day or so. I have to search through a lot of diary entries, and put them all together, but I now know exactly what you mean. Like Adam-god, it is a controversial doctrine, and the church split on it after the time of Joseph Fielding Smith. More later.


Hi Grindael,

I just now saw this post after I had already posted my response to your last post to me (what???). Anyway, if you will review the information in the thread I started (which is mentioned in the post I just posted), it will give you even more stuff to consider before you get back to me about reincarnation.

It does bother me that the Church does not focus on the subject of reincarnation. I do not know if it is because the Leaders were inspired by the Holy Spirit to back off on it because the members weren't ready; or if they themselves weren't yet able embrace it. Either way, it does not change my desire on where I hang my hat. I am, though, pursuing knowledge about reincarnation through promptings I am receiving from the Holy Spirit. No earthly "church" is able to save a single soul. I guess you could call me a rebel.....

Blessings,

jo
_gdemetz
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _gdemetz »

Saman, maybe you are? It's really very simple! He predicted that it would start in South Carolina!
_grindael
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _grindael »

It is just silly for you to say that you are not angry. I can see that you are. For instance, here is a comment you made to me: “That’s just tripe, and you know it.” It doesn't really matter to me if an individual is angry or not; I get angry too. I am just concerned when our anger clouds our ability to understand what we are saying to each other. So let’s just move on.


Jo, Maybe your anger is clouding your ability, but I’m not angry, and so my ability is unclouded. You saying that I am, doesn’t make it so. And again, calling something tripe, doesn’t mean that someone is angry. It’s a slang term for rubbish. It appears that you are the one fixated on anger here.

The following comes from the link you provided; therefore it is your source:

Quote:
“Ephesians 3:3-5:
... how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in a few words, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets ...

The mystery has been made known not only to Paul, but also to the apostles and prophets of the early church. The mystery has been revealed by the Spirit; and it is by the Spirit that the apostles and prophets receive an enlightened understanding of the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery is also revealed to the saints by the Spirit, through the teaching of the apostles and prophets:"

Now, when I asked you what your interpretation was for “and he will tell you what is yet to come”, you answered thus: I can only tell you what the Bible says. Its right there in the verses I quoted, Jesus said,“the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” and that includes “what is yet to come”. Therefore, in accordance with the very source you provided, you are contradicting yourself. In other words, if the Holy Spirit is giving you the spiritual understanding that you claim it is (also, refer to your argument about how there are NOT layered meanings in the Bible), then you would have been able to present an interpretation of “and he will tell you what is yet to come”. Not only that, but I would offer you should have been able to give some examples which you have personally experienced in order to support your interpretation. by the way, for you to try to claim that Paul was talking only about the type of prophecy which Apostles have received the gift of (as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit), then you are denying this particular teaching of Paul wherein he said “and he will tell you what is yet to come”, which was a message he was giving to all of the saints.

And so, I don’t think your claim is accurate wherein you said: I understand perfectly what Paul was teaching, and I don’t need your clarification.


I never contradicted myself. I told you that I could only tell you what the Bible said. It says what it says. That was the crux of my argument to you. I don’t need to make an “interpretation” of what is right there in plain English. Paul said what he said about prophecy. That those chosen disciples would know what was to come, is right in line with what Paul said, because Jesus is God. Paul said the Holy Spirit (God) gives gifts to who he pleases, and Jesus was letting his chosen disciples know that they would have that gift. That doesn’t mean that everyone will have it, just as Paul explains.

You quoted from 1 Corinthians 12 after which you said:

Quote:
Smith obviously did not understand this, teaching that anyone who had the testimony of Jesus must be a prophet. This is not found in the Bible. It is up to the Holy Spirit which gift is given to each individual, that is why being “ordained” a prophet, seer & revelator is also un-Biblical. We do not determine what gifts the Spirit gives. That is arrogant, and contradicts what the real authorized servants of Jesus taught.

Paul disagrees with you:

1 Corinthians 12:31 (KJV)
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way..

He teaches the people to earnestly covet the best gifts!!


Again, You can yearn for those gifts, but that doesn’t mean that you are going to get every one of them. It would make what Paul said redundant and superfluous.

However, I would hope that you will also read chapters 13 and 14, as Paul goes on to expand his teaching.

1 Corinthians 13:7-13 (KJV)

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Yes, and notice that he says, “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) Partial is partial. Some have one part of the body, another has a different part. Some are prophets, some are teachers, etc. The Holy Spirit decides, as Paul explicitly states.

Indeed, it IS difficult to understand Paul’s teachings! Now, read this:

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (KJV)

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but (i.e., also, and, moreover) rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Why would Paul teach the members to desire the spiritual gift of prophesy? Did he want them to seek for something in vain?


Are you a prophet, Jo? How many prophets do you know? Does every person in your church prophesy on a regular basis? Why would Paul ask Are all prophets? Prophecy is a gift. It is up to the giver if or when he will give the gift..

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)

For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy…

Paul wanted people to desire to prophecy because it was a greater gift, and was of more benefit to the church.

Quote:
The Corinthians were people who were not quite ready to “live by the spirit”. The Gentiles did not have the law, and had to learn to live by the spirit. They obviously understood what they were taught, but they were new and weak, and divided by false teachers, those Paul called “super apostles” and “the Circumcision Group”.

Actually, in 1 Corinthians Chapter 3, Paul is NOT talking about false teachers….unless you think Paul and Apollos were false teachers….

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, could not speak (i.e., preach) unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

In other words, Paul was not sharing anything spiritual with them yet. So, if he had not yet spoken to them of what was spiritual versus what was carnal, how could they “understand” what Paul had not taught them yet? Paul certainly was NOT telling them they were divided because they were listening to false teachers. He is talking to them about the envying, the strife, and the divisions among them because some felt they were better than others because Paul had been the one who brought them into the church; while others felt they were better than others because Apollos had been the one who brought them into the church. In other words just like all of the various denominations which we see today…..including the “non-denominational” church which you attend.


Let me clarify, since it seems you didn't understand what I was getting at. Some in the Corinthian Church who Paul called “super apostles” were doing and teaching things that were not right.

In the very next chapter, Paul states,

“But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.”

Paul finds out that there were some false teachers were dividing the Corinthians and babbling in tongues. Paul let’s us know all this in his second letter:

11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

The Corinthians had all kinds of problems. But they were taught the gospel, (some by Apollos) and some by Paul, but others were dividing them, and giving them false teachings and some fell into sin. Paul said there were false teachers there he called super apostles, and then stressed that he showed them the marks of a TRUE apostle. Reading both of Paul’s letters to the Corinthians gives one a much better understanding about what was going on there.

In other words just like all of the various denominations which we see today…..including the “non-denominational” church which you attend.


You know nothing about my church, so your comment is ridiculous.

Now, you have also claimed that the non-denominational church you attend teaches what the Bible teaches. Isn’t that the same claim of ALL denominations in Christendom? Which “version” of Biblical teachings does your church teach that makes them “correct”, and the others “incorrect”? Does your church teach Orthodox beliefs? Do they teach heterodox beliefs? If they are heterodox, then they are most likely not considered to be Christian beliefs by mainstream Christianity. If they ARE Orthodox beliefs, then indeed your beliefs HAVE BEEN voted upon through the years, ever since the ancient church was established.


You are speculating about things you know nothing about. Nothing was voted upon. Whether what my church teaches lines up with those you call “Orthodox” , they only do so, because that is what has been taught in the Bible since ancient times. Anyone can pick up a Bible, read it, have faith, call on the name of Jesus and be saved. It doesn’t take a church vote for this to happen, or a church for that matter.

I am going to repeat part of my last post, as I feel it is extremely important. The first paragraph was one you quoted to me.

Quote:
Therefore, the risen Jesus told John,

2 These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate[/b]. 7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2 NIV)

To which I responded (and I have changed the color of the text I particularly would like to have you respond to; or at least, admit to):

“Maybe I missed something there. I know it is your agenda to try to prove that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet of God and that the LDS Church is false. You seem very concerned that this will damage our ability to be saved, yes? However, as I read the above, I cannot help but notice that even though the members of the church at Ephesus had tested and found false apostles, they were still in danger; that they should consider “how far you have fallen”. In fact, if they did not repent, the lampstand would be removed from its place. In other words, their lampstand (the church of Ephesus) will be removed from Heaven.So, apparently, testing and identifying false apostles was not enough to keep them from falling far. Can you explain how it is that they STILL fell? And how it is they had fallen so far?”


Christians are always in danger. It’s all over the New Testament. Unfortunately, Jesus doesn’t say what they did wrong to fall. But Jesus said they “had persevered”. And he said they had “forsaken the love” they “had at first”. Matthew Henry wrote, “The first affections of men towards Christ, and holiness, and heaven, are usually lively and warm. God remembered the love of Israel’s espousals, when she would follow him withersoever he went. (2.) These lively affections will abate and cool if great care be not taken, and diligence used, to preserve them in constant exercise. (3.) Christ is grieved and displeased with his people when he sees them grow remiss and cold towards him, and he will one way or other make them sensible that he does not take it well from them.”.

The city of Ephesus had been relocated because of the gradual silting up of its river, the Cayster, and had been “removed” from earlier sites. By analogy, Christ threatens to remove the church unless its people repent.

Because some at the Church of Ephesus had problems doesn’t take away from Christ’s approval to test those that claim to be apostles.

Therefore, for you to continue in this agenda you appear to be so driven in, indicates to me that you do not understand what the Bible is teaching to the extent that you have so far claimed to understand it.


Your warning and conclusion isn’t going to change my mind about speaking out about Mormonism. It simply doesn’t make a bit of difference if you think I don’t understand the Bible. What matters to me, is that others can read and decide for themselves if I do, and if Mormonism measures up to what it teaches.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_gdemetz
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _gdemetz »

Grindale, what about "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High"? It's right there in plain English also! Do you believe that?! "South Carolina," was was where the Civil war started just as Joseph prophesied, right there in plain English, the bloodiest war in American history. More lives were lost by Americans that all the wars since! God did not state that there were no wars before that! Daniel prophesied the 1260 prophetic days (Years, times, time and a half) until the restoration (570 AD to 1830 AD) and then 1290 days (years) until the abomination of desolation set up (570 AD to 1860 AD, when the attacks were planned, the attack was in 1861 AD). This meant exactly what Joseph prophesied that wars would be POURED out, like never before beginning at that place!
_jo1952
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _jo1952 »

grindael wrote:
I never contradicted myself. I told you that I could only tell you what the Bible said. It says what it says. That was the crux of my argument to you. I don’t need to make an “interpretation” of what is right there in plain English. Paul said what he said about prophecy. That those chosen disciples would know what was to come, is right in line with what Paul said, because Jesus is God. Paul said the Holy Spirit (God) gives gifts to who he pleases, and Jesus was letting his chosen disciples know that they would have that gift. That doesn’t mean that everyone will have it, just as Paul explains.


Now I'm not sure what you believe. You used a source which stated:"The mystery is also revealed to the saints by the Spirit, through the teaching of the apostles and prophets:" But since you are unable to have the Spirit reveal to you what is meant by: “and he will tell you what is yet to come”, then the mystery must not have been revealed to you. That is why you are forced to say: "I can only tell you what the Bible says. Its right there in the verses I quoted, "

Do you not see that your interpretation of what you think Paul was teaching directly contradicts what Jesus taught?? Jesus said that the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) would lead us to all Truth. Jesus did NOT say that the Holy Spirit would only lead us to "part" of the Truth. When Paul teaches about the "gifts of the Spirit", he is teaching a different level of understanding as to what Jesus was teaching. But Paul was NOT teaching the ONLY understanding about how the Holy Spirit leads us. That is why he went on to teach us to covet all the best gifts. In other words, to seek for more! And to especially seek for the gift of Prophecy. When a member of the church has a had a "part" of Truth revealed to them, they can then edify the other members of the church.

In Greek a "prophet" is an inspired speaker; to shine; make manifest; light (!!). In Greek "revelation" is a manifestation; to lighten (!!). Paul even speaks about what is to come:

1 Corinthians 13:7-13 (KJV)

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


All "parts" will cease "when that which is perfect is come". What is Paul saying here? There are layers of understanding here!! Paul is NOT just speaking about Jesus here!! He is also talking about each one of us!! Jesus commanded us to be perfect! When we reach perfection, the "parts" which Paul was speaking about will be done away. He even explains this further when he says "now I know in part; but THEN shall I know even as ALSO I AM KNOWN"!!!! He will have been led to all Truth! He will be completely born of the Spirit because the Spirit will have revealed all Truth to him. He will be able to see the Kingdom of God!! He will "see" clearly that he has become One with God! Paul has just shared a great mystery with us!!!! This is the same journey we will all take! There will be no need for "parts" -- so there will be no need for prophecies, for speaking in tongues, not even a need for knowledge (for understanding). "BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME, THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY"!!!

Again, You can yearn for those gifts, but that doesn’t mean that you are going to get every one of them. It would make what Paul said redundant and superfluous.


No, my friend, Paul was speaking Truth. It is in seeking that we shall find!

Yes, and notice that he says, “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10) Partial is partial. Some have one part of the body, another has a different part. Some are prophets, some are teachers, etc. The Holy Spirit decides, as Paul explicitly states.


You do not see that your interpretation is throwing away other passages - even passages which Paul himself was teaching. So again I ask: Why would Paul teach the members to desire the spiritual gift of prophesy? Did he want them to seek for something in vain?

Consider this:

1 Corinthians 14:30-33 (KJV)

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


How do you reconcile the above with your interpretation of what Paul was teaching about prophecy?

Are you a prophet, Jo? How many prophets do you know? Does every person in your church prophesy on a regular basis? Why would Paul ask Are all prophets? Prophecy is a gift. It is up to the giver if or when he will give the gift..


How many prophets are in your church? Keep in mind 1 Corinthians 14:31 "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.", as well as the following:

Acts 2:17 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Consider again the Greek definitions of Prophet and Revelation: In Greek a "prophet" is an inspired speaker; to shine; make manifest; light (!!). In Greek "revelation" is a manifestation; to lighten (!!).

I have had much revealed to me. However, because I am not yet perfect, I have not become One with God. I DO try to share what HAS been revealed because this is of benefit to the church in that it can edify those who have the ears to hear; those who are ready to receive it.

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)


Indeed! Praise God!!

Paul wanted people to desire to prophecy because it was a greater gift, and was of more benefit to the church.


How could it benefit the church if they did not receive it?

Let me clarify, since it seems you didn't understand what I was getting at. Some in the Corinthian Church who Paul called “super apostles” were doing and teaching things that were not right.

11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

The Corinthians had all kinds of problems. But they were taught the gospel, (some by Apollos) and some by Paul, but others were dividing them, and giving them false teachings and some fell into sin. Paul said there were false teachers there he called super apostles, and then stressed that he showed them the marks of a TRUE apostle. Reading both of Paul’s letters to the Corinthians gives one a much better understanding about what was going on there.


Oh my.....Paul wasn't telling them they had "super apostles" who were actually false teachers in Corinth. He is talking about the other True Apostles! (see also 1 Cor 15:4-9) He is also saying that even though he "is nothing", he is NOT inferior to the other Apostles. He even demonstrated the same qualities of the other Apostles.

Reading both of Paul's letters to the Corinthians SHOULD give someone a better understanding about what was going on there.

You know nothing about my church, so your comment is ridiculous.


I'm just re-iterating what Paul was teaching.

You are speculating about things you know nothing about. Nothing was voted upon. Whether what my church teaches lines up with those you call “Orthodox” , they only do so, because that is what has been taught in the Bible since ancient times. Anyone can pick up a Bible, read it, have faith, call on the name of Jesus and be saved. It doesn’t take a church vote for this to happen, or a church for that matter.


Not so! The first time(s) I read and studied the Bible I had NO pre-conceptions about what it taught. It was later that I learned in the Lutheran church that Orthodox churches were NOT teaching what the Bible was teaching me. This sent me on a nine-year quest to find a denomination that taught the same things the Bible taught me. I agree that it doesn't take a church vote for us to be saved; or a church for that matter. Yet it is Orthodoxy that tells me I am NOT saved. Go figure.

You are the one who claimed that you are only relating to me what the Bible teaches. Yet you ARE relating "what lines up with those I call Orthodox". Study some history on the ancient church; there was voting going on all of the time. Especially study what happened at the first council of Nicea in 325 AD, including what was going on politically. Soon death was meted out to those who did not agree with the teachings of the church at Rome. Follow church history and see what happened in 1054 AD; then onward to the Reformation, etc. I can only conclude that you are either in complete denial of the history of your own current belief system, or you have not yet learned it. Yet you somehow feel qualified to claim my belief system is false because you were once LDS?

............Because some at the Church of Ephesus had problems doesn’t take away from Christ’s approval to test those that claim to be apostles.


You are trying to minimize the fact that if the Church of Ephesus didn't repent because they had fallen so far, God was not going to save them (inspite of the fact that they had tested for false Apostles). Their testing for false Apostles is not what was going to save them. There will always be false teachers and prophets among us. Any of us can either knowingly OR unknowingly become a false teacher or prophet from time to time. Jesus even called Peter "satan" because Peter didn't want Jesus to die. Peter didn't want Jesus to die because Peter LOVED Jesus. Even a character strength (such as love) can become twisted by satan. In this case Peter's love became a selfish desire. Even a righteous desire can cause us to fall.

Your warning and conclusion isn’t going to change my mind about speaking out about Mormonism. It simply doesn’t make a bit of difference if you think I don’t understand the Bible. What matters to me, is that others can read and decide for themselves if I do, and if Mormonism measures up to what it teaches.


If believing readers are honest with themselves, they will look at all denominations and use the very same standards of measurement for all churches. Again, even a righteous desire can cause us to fall. We are all guilty of this at one time or another. That is why Jesus mercifully taught us the lesson He taught Peter; so that we could all learn from the Master Himself.

Blessings,

jo
_grindael
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Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _grindael »

Grindale,


If you are going to address someone, spelling their name right helps.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_jo1952
_Emeritus
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am

Re: Fulfilled Prophecy?

Post by _jo1952 »

grindael wrote:
If you are going to address someone, spelling their name right helps.


Does this mean you are not going to respond to gdemetz's question...because he didn't spell your unusual name correctly?

Just in case then, I will ask the same question.

What about, "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High"? It's right there in the Bible in plain English also! Do you believe that?

Blessings,

jo
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