Drifting wrote:I'm sure that's the case. But I was discussing Mormonsim.
Hi Drifting,
You are missing the point that no matter what church a person joins, it takes time to learn everything about the doctrine of any religious institution. And even if a person doesn't join a church, it still takes a long time for the Holy Spirit to lead someone to all Truth. Therefore, I think it is a poor argument to use against the LDS Church. The argument is based upon a poor premise.
Drifting wrote:Not so. Mormon Missionaries do not tell prospective converts all that they need to know to make an informed decision. Missionaries explain some very basic ideas aimed at getting their mark into the font. Unless you are saying that secret handshakes and oaths to total consecration aren't part of the Gospel?
I don't know, Drifting. I've heard many an "alter call" offered in mainstream Christianity during my life time. They do not even offer anything akin to what an investigator is offered by the LDS Church. Alter calls don't even mention the Trinity dogma, any of the Creeds, etc., which the "born again Christian" will be taught AFTER accepting Jesus. Some don't accept the Trinity for a long time after converting simply because they can't understand it. Meanwhile, they are being preached at that they MUST accept it, or they haven't really been saved.....even though at the moment they answered the alter call, the same people promised that they HAD been saved....
Blessings,
jo
Jo, I have to disagree at this point. Some churches may stick with only the love of God and not get into anything deep. However, the churches I have regularly attended through the years, and that would be 5, have all talked about the fact of Christ being God, the Father being God and the Holy Spirit being God at some point. The trinity is presented especially at baptisms. Salvation is a maturing process that doesn't end at an alter call ---- it but begins there. The saved individual goes from being a baby in Christ towards becoming Christ-like as he grows in the spirit. Salvation is not stagnate, but a process that continues until one meets Jesus face to face in heaven.
LittleNipper wrote:Jo, I have to disagree at this point. Some churches may stick with only the love of God and not get into anything deep. However, the churches I have regularly attended through the years, and that would be 5, have all talked about the fact of Christ being God, the Father being God and the Holy Spirit being God at some point. The trinity is presented especially at baptisms. Salvation is a maturing process that doesn't end at an alter call ---- it but begins there. The saved individual goes from being a baby in Christ towards becoming Christ-like as he grows in the spirit. Salvation is not stagnate, but a process that continues until one meets Jesus face to face in heaven.
Hello LittleNipper!
The "alter calls" I have witnessed did not include baptism. Baptism came at a later date. So I think we are merely talking past each other. I agree that accepting Christ is only the beginning of our journey. In fact, I agree with everything else you said, with the clarification of when baptism took place with regard to the alter calls.
I would like to mention, though, that I have talked to many Christians who were baptized even though they had not yet accepted the Trinity. I think that is because the church they were joining had the hope that they would eventually learn and understand it enough to be able to accept it. Most of these Christians did eventually accept it. Others though, still do not accept it; nor do they believe that they need to. They also do not believe, therefore, that others need to accept it in order to be saved. Meanwhile, they are still content to stay within the denomination they were baptized into. As such they a part of the many Christians who have chosen Orthodox denominations to be a part of, even though they do not believe that all Orthodox doctrine is correct.
LittleNipper wrote:Jo, I have to disagree at this point. Some churches may stick with only the love of God and not get into anything deep. However, the churches I have regularly attended through the years, and that would be 5, have all talked about the fact of Christ being God, the Father being God and the Holy Spirit being God at some point. The trinity is presented especially at baptisms. Salvation is a maturing process that doesn't end at an alter call ---- it but begins there. The saved individual goes from being a baby in Christ towards becoming Christ-like as he grows in the spirit. Salvation is not stagnate, but a process that continues until one meets Jesus face to face in heaven.
Hello LittleNipper!
The "alter calls" I have witnessed did not include baptism. Baptism came at a later date. So I think we are merely talking past each other. I agree that accepting Christ is only the beginning of our journey. In fact, I agree with everything else you said, with the clarification of when baptism took place with regard to the alter calls.
I would like to mention, though, that I have talked to many Christians who were baptized even though they had not yet accepted the Trinity. I think that is because the church they were joining had the hope that they would eventually learn and understand it enough to be able to accept it. Most of these Christians did eventually accept it. Others though, still do not accept it; nor do they believe that they need to. They also do not believe, therefore, that others need to accept it in order to be saved. Meanwhile, they are still content to stay within the denomination they were baptized into. As such they a part of the many Christians who have chosen Orthodox denominations to be a part of, even though they do not believe that all Orthodox doctrine is correct.
I have been enjoying your sweet spirit!
Blessings,
jo
Well, I know they baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I also know that Jesus Christ is presented as God and not simply a sinless man. I was emersed when I was 24 years after I professed Christ as my Savior (my dad had been a Catholic and had issues with dunking). My own son was baptized at the age of 6. We both were asked questions concerning our faith in Christ and what we believed (different churches & years apart). Thanks
Mittens wrote: Well, I know they baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I also know that Jesus Christ is presented as God and not simply a sinless man. I was emersed when I was 24 years after I professed Christ as my Savior (my dad had been a Catholic and had issues with dunking). My own son was baptized at the age of 6. We both were asked questions concerning our faith in Christ and what we believed (different churches & years apart). Thanks
I do not know of any Christian churches (including the LDS) who do not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The LDS believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God---as such He is also a God.
I think what happens when a person is baptized even though they may not yet understand or accept everything the church they are baptized by believes, do so anyway because as new converts they are very much desirous to show God that they love and appreciate Him. As they grow and progress and get to know God better, their understanding about Him will naturally evolve. Each person's journey is extremely personal and unique.
You are right, the list of facts that a liberal expresses is much larger than the list of known facts that I have. So there is a bias to the quantity. Now we could argue over the quality of those so called facts. But it all comes down to world views and how well someone accepts the assumptions of science. That road is well traveled.
This whole subject is just bait. This little fishy will just seek a morsel to feed on somewhere else.
62% of all statistics are made up!
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
Jo, I think you miss the point for converts to Christian churches. Everything a person needs for salvation is represented in the person of Jesus. Christians are not saved by adhering to denominational practices and interpretations. Salvation is in and through only Jesus...a free gift from God through his Son given by grace through the faith manifested by the believer. Churches don't save people and nor do their particular beliefs and practices...only Jesus saves. Christ's church provides the communion of fellow believers to grow in that saving grace.
Albion wrote:Jo, I think you miss the point for converts to Christian churches. Everything a person needs for salvation is represented in the person of Jesus. Christians are not saved by adhering to denominational practices and interpretations. Salvation is in and through only Jesus...a free gift from God through his Son given by grace through the faith manifested by the believer. Churches don't save people and nor do their particular beliefs and practices...only Jesus saves. Christ's church provides the communion of fellow believers to grow in that saving grace.
Exactly what I believe. The Church is the assembly of believers and the union of all the living saved or saints of Christ. Methodist, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc., have not cornered the market. And any religious group that thinks it has is likely a cult. A cult assumes the focus and places it on rituals and leadership "in addition to" God --- who may often become second fiddle to organizational control/manipulation.
Albion wrote:Jo, I think you miss the point for converts to Christian churches. Everything a person needs for salvation is represented in the person of Jesus. Christians are not saved by adhering to denominational practices and interpretations. Salvation is in and through only Jesus...a free gift from God through his Son given by grace through the faith manifested by the believer. Churches don't save people and nor do their particular beliefs and practices...only Jesus saves. Christ's church provides the communion of fellow believers to grow in that saving grace.
Exactly what I believe. The Church is the assembly of believers and the union of all the living saved or saints of Christ. Methodist, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc., have not cornered the market. And any religious group that thinks it has is likely a cult. A cult assumes the focus and places it on rituals and leadership "in addition to" God --- who may often become second fiddle to organizational control/manipulation.
So when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints proclaims itself as the one and only true Chrurch, that is effectively identifying itself as a cult?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator