Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

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_jo1952
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _jo1952 »

Albion wrote:Well, Jo, I am sorry that I don't have the superior spiritual understanding that you claim for yourself...after all I boast not in anything of myself but only in Christ who saves me. I am impressed though that you would presume to know so much about me from just a few posts on this message board but when you look down on others from such a lofty position I suppose that ability is a natural byproduct of the superior viewpoint....but then, too, personal attacks do appear to fit Mormon apologetics as I have seen them on this board. Interesting that you would accuse me of sharing "from what man has taught"...especially since you place so much trust in the words of Joseph Smith and his introduced theologies rather than the holy spirit who talks through actual scripture. You appear to claim a sincerity for yourself that you deny to others. Don't you think that a little presumptuous?

I regret that you appear to think I have not answered your questions...but from my perspective I think I have done so. In defense, if I haven't, it's because I prefer to study the original to weigh the counterfeit against it rather than to use counterfeit philosophies and theologies to verify the original. At the end of the day, I can only be true to the whispering of the HS as I hear him and by extension I can only be accountable to God rather than your presumed opinion of me. I can live with that because I know where my trust is placed.


Albion,

You still cling so tightly to anti-LDS rhetoric you cannot see my words. I have not taken any personal credit - nor do I boast of myself. This is what I have said over and over again: What I have shared comes from the Truth which the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. Also, whatever I have written about spiritual Truth just so happens to agree with what Paul taught about spiritual Truth. Go figure. Likewise, he taught that those who DO understand spiritually will not be understood by those who only understand temporally. I can see that you believe in Christ. But that does not mean that you "know" Him. Knowing Him (because He IS Truth) is a journey which the Holy Spirit leads you on so that you CAN know All Truth. I don't "know" Him yet either. I do recognize that God has revealed more parts of the Truth than He has to you. Paul was able to make the same distinctions; but he knew much more than I currently know. Even though Jesus was here in the flesh when He taught the ancient Apostles, they did not "know" Him either. The evidence for this is found in Jesus' own words, "I have not taught you everything I know; but what the Father has told me to teach you"; "The Comforter will lead you to All Truth". Jesus in the flesh was NOT all that Jesus IS; Jesus was not allowed to reveal all that He is. This is not a personal attack. It is not surprizing that much of the anti-LDS rhetoric concerns the Holy Spirit. This was also taught by Paul - and you are manifesting his teachings by the way you respond to the Truth which the Holy Spirit has revealed to me.

When we are able to recognize Truth (and Truth is everywhere!), we will recognize it because the Holy Spirit will reveal it to us. When we hear Truth spoken it will edify us, regardless of WHO spoke it, or where we are when it is spoken. This is also how we are able to recognize when others are walking in the Spirit. It doesn't matter what religious institution your are a member of. It doesn't matter if you are not a member of any religious institution. Truth is Truth. When we are spiritually in-tuned, actively and sincerely seeking Truth, we will recognize it and be drawn to it no matter where it is that we come across it.

My opinion of you is that you are at the beginning of your journey of being taught All Truth. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Your desire to believe in Christ and to accept Him as your Savior is a wonderful thing!! You have just begun your journey. You will find that it is an awesome journey!! In my journey, I have come to be able to experience more and more of the Holy Spirit as Father has deemed me able to receive it. I don't receive it unless I continue to diligently seek more and more Truth; Praise God that He is faithful to His promise to mankind! Even though I still sin and still seek forgiveness, it is because I am still seeking Truth that the Holy Spirit will reveal more Truth to my spirit. By keeping Jesus' ways, the things the Apostles taught are taking place in my journey. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals Truth just like Jesus promised; just like the Apostles taught.

Now, just because they DID speak the Truth about HOW to acquire Truth, when I share what has been revealed, you are calling me boastful; even though I give credit to God. Never have I said you are accountable to me OR to what I have shared. It is when you able to receive Truth when you hear it, THAT is when you will hear it. THAT is when you will have the eyes to see. This is not my teaching. It is God's teaching. You are accountable only to God - no other. When our spirit is able to see the Kingdom of God, it will because our spirit has been Born of the Spirit; and NOT before that time. As such, it is clear to me that neither of us has yet completed the journey of receiving All Truth. Why do you begrudge me what has been revealed to me? There will a point where you will be saying the very same things to others, and they will claim that you are being boastful. Neither you or I created the Plan of Salvation (and thank Heavens for that!!!); however, ALL of us must make the journey in order to return to God and become One with Him.

Blessings,

jo
_gdemetz
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _gdemetz »

It's not too late Albion. You can repent of your spiritual blindness. Think of these words, Albion......."RESTITUTION OF ALL (I SAID ALL) THINGS"!!!
_Albion
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _Albion »

I can only read what you write, Jo, and you appear to place more trust in your claimed knowledge and the superior status you boast in than the single most important truth of scripture...that you are a sinner in need of salvation (eternal life with the Father in the joy of all that he has) and that in his atonement Jesus provided all that is necessary for that salvation. It is faith in Jesus and his atonement that justifies us, not works "lest any man boast". While knowledge and study are very important elements of the Christian life with all that brings, this salvation is in no way dependent on us and our efforts but only on Him. We cannot even claim the process of faith as something of our doing but it is the grace of God working in us through the Spirit. I came to Christ with the aid of no one except the HS as I read God's word and allowed it to speak simply and plainly to me and I rest in Him only.
_Albion
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _Albion »

gdemetz, I do believe in a restitution of all things...just not the things of Joseph Smith that you claim the scripture points to.
_Mittens
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _Mittens »

1 Cor. 15:

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:

The Bible teaches no pre-existence except Jesus who was Jehovah God


and Book of Mormon since it teaches the Nicene Creed

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_gdemetz
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _gdemetz »

Albion, you need to think. It is the "restitution of ALL things." There is nothing about apostate Christendom that has been restored! On the other hand the LDS church has completely restored all the teachings, offices (including prophets and apostles), and ordinances of the primitive church!!!

Mittens, you are beginning to sound like a broken record! Of course, Christ is an eternal God, but that does not support the false doctrine of the trinity!
_Mittens
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _Mittens »

gdemetz wrote:Albion, you need to think. It is the "restitution of ALL things." There is nothing about apostate Christendom that has been restored! On the other hand the LDS church has completely restored all the teachings, offices (including prophets and apostles), and ordinances of the primitive church!!!

Mittens, you are beginning to sound like a broken record! Of course, Christ is an eternal God, but that does not support the false doctrine of the trinity!




The Book of Mormon teaches the Trinity

2 Nephi 31:
, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.


Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.


Sounds like the Trinity found in Athanasion and Nicene Creed
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_gdemetz
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _gdemetz »

You still can't comprehend what I am stating can you mittens?!? Let me try once again! In the false doctrine of the trinity, the three Gods are considered as ONE BEING! In Mormon doctrine, they are worshiped as one God (more correctly Godhead as the Bible states), however, they are recognized as three distinct and separate beings!!!!!!!
_Albion
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _Albion »

You also, gdemetz, fail to comprehend the Christian position. In the doctrine of the Trinity the three are not considered to be ONE BEING. They are considered to be three personages who are one God. What you state is not the Christian position whether you agree with it or not.
_Mittens
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Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

Post by _Mittens »

Albion wrote:You also, gdemetz, fail to comprehend the Christian position. In the doctrine of the Trinity the three are not considered to be ONE BEING. They are considered to be three personages who are one God. What you state is not the Christian position whether you agree with it or not.



Correct, three separate and distinct persons represent the One God, Mark 12:28-19
Just like pre-1835 Joeph Smith taught since he was influenced by the Creeds
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
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