Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yeesh, Meadowchik. I'm sorry you went through that! That's awful.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

So Joanna demands that they both resign or she will, but they can be hired back as private contractors who avoid each other at work. Rosebud tries to get John to force Joanna to resign. John resigns and reapplies as an independent contractor. He no longer has any authority over Rosebud as soon as he complies with Joanna’s request and resigns. Rosebud refuses to resign. Joanna fires her. Rosebud threatens John and Open Stories Foundation with a harassment complaint. She goes with nonconsensual touching because Joanna, not John, terminated her when she refused to resign. The texts make it look like Rosebud cooperated with Joanna and brought John into the negotiation. I don’t see that John conspired with Joanna in these texts. Rosebud tells John to talk to Joanna and to cooperate with Joanna. Then Rosebud turns around and tries to persuade John not to cooperate with Joanna.

What am I missing here?

Where did John wrongfully terminate or conspire to terminate Rosebud’s employment?

[Kishkumen]

Yeesh, Meadowchik. I'm sorry you went through that! That's awful.

- Doc

Yeah, that is HORRIFIC! Meadowchik is pretty damn amazing to have handled that so well. Very smart, ethical, and tough as nails.

[Meadowchik]

Yeesh, Meadowchik. I'm sorry you went through that! That's awful.

- Doc

It was awful.

I still share parts of the experience, from time to time, though it is resolved in every pragmatic sense, and I hope that doesn't make me bitter and crazy. We learned a lot from it and also defined our values as we managed it.

Of course because of how it intersected with leaving the church it also became part of that defining moment in our lives. And so the story also gets told from that angle.

I don't air the names of the renters, but then again it was a relatively private affair unconnected to any public platform. But if the former renter somehow became a major influencer and this experience with him would be relevant information, I'm sure I would consider sharing it.

[Dr Exiled]

I don’t see how this fairly banal point about him having an consensual affair with her while he bore the title of executive director and she employee and member of the board....

I can see this argument. And while this situation was going on, he texted he wanted her gone. Unfortunately, no matter how badly the victim acted, that is still the definition of sexual harassment. The victim was despicable, i agree. All the more reason to not violate common sense rules about having a relationship at work when there is a power differential.

hat’s looking paper thin to me. A “power differential” is open to a lot of subjective interpretation here, as is the term “abuse.”

Where is the text that says, “John, I am furious with you for touching me inappropriately against my consent”?

A victim has to behave rationally and clearly indicate responsibility, for sexual harassment to exist?

A victim doesn't have to act rationally for a claim to exist. However, it does go to the question of damages. Rosebud would have a hard time claiming any emotional damages given her conduct and her having to leave would be inevitable in this situation. Perhaps she should have been given a few months severance in order to leave. That is what a lot of companies do in order to get rid of problem employees along with a strong settlement agreement waiving future lawsuit rights for conduct up to that point.

I once represented a harasser in a mixed motive case where we had evidence that the company had set up my client up due to a power play he had with another manager. The company knew my client would occasionally run his mouth when he saw a good looking woman in the gym they worked at and so they brought in a ringer to provide the opportunity and my client took the bait. He was guilty of harassment. However, the severance being offered was really low given the real reason for the firing and we pushed for a higher number.

I wonder if Open Stories Foundation explored a settlement at the time Rosebud refused to quit. If it did, Rosebud probably didn't accept due to an over inflated sense of worth to Open Stories Foundation.

[Kishkumen]

They did provide her a severance package, and I have a copy of the letter.

[Dr Exiled]

They did provide her a severance package, and I have a copy of the letter.

I'd love to see it if you could share.

[Kishkumen]

I'd love to see it if you could share.

PMed you a link. James Patterson put a link to the letter on Reddit.

[Lem]

I can see this argument. And while this situation was going on, he texted he wanted her gone. Unfortunately, no matter how badly the victim acted, that is still the definition of sexual harassment. The victim was despicable, i agree. All the more reason to not violate common sense rules about having a relationship at work when there is a power differential.


A victim has to behave rationally and clearly indicate responsibility, for sexual harassment to exist?

A victim doesn't have to act rationally for a claim to exist. However, it does go to the question of damages.

Excellent point.

I wonder if Open Stories Foundation explored a settlement at the time Rosebud refused to quit. If it did, Rosebud probably didn't accept due to an over inflated sense of worth to Open Stories Foundation.

I vaguely recall rosebud mentioning an offer, but i totally agree with your point about an over-inflated sense of worth. Even in her withdrawal letter to the state of NH, she pointed out, twice If I recall correctly, that future historians would be reading what she wrote. Unreal.

[Lem]

Yeesh, Meadowchik. I'm sorry you went through that! That's awful.

- Doc

It was awful.

I still share parts of the experience, from time to time, though it is resolved in every pragmatic sense, and I hope that doesn't make me bitter and crazy. We learned a lot from it and also defined our values as we managed it.

Of course because of how it intersected with leaving the church it also became part of that defining moment in our lives. And so the story also gets told from that angle.

I don't air the names of the renters, but then again it was a relatively private affair unconnected to any public platform. But if the former renter somehow became a major influencer and this experience with him would be relevant information, I'm sure I would consider sharing it.

That's awful. And If I recall correctly from your information, the church involvement was really wrong.