The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:1. God having "sex" is not Doctrine nor is it as you characterize (as usual)


Examples of the teaching
For example, Brigham Young said that,
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, volume 8, p. 115)
He also taught:
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)
Ezra Taft Benson taught:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4)
Orson Pratt taught:
"[God] had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son , ...it may be that ... He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits (bear his children) in eternity." ('The Seer, p. 158)
The 1985 edition of Gospel Principles teaches:
"Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father." (p.57)
In this manual Joseph F. Smith is quoted under the heading, "A MODERN PROPHET'S ANSWER":
"Now we are told in Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father... We must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ. And he was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of his Father."
Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
"Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of man, and that man was God! They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten [conceived] of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible." Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 18,19
James E. Talmage taught:
"[our Heavenly Father beget [conceived] Jesus of a virgin] not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof" (Jesus the Christ, p. 81).
Bruce McConkie taught:
"Some words scarcely need definition… Two such words are father and son. Their meaning is known to all, and to define them is but to repeat them. Thus: A son is a son is a son, and a father is a father is a father. I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men. And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living offspring of an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacled in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of God-the Only Begotten of the Father" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 468).
Again:
"And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord's generation to the world. Their testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his Father-in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement" (The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p. 473).
Again:
"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)
Again:
"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says." (Ibid., page 742)
A 1916 first presidency doctrinal statement reads:
"God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title “Elohim,” is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race... Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh... "[2]examples from wiki
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:6. not true, disingenuous


6- One can be saved just by making a verbal profession of faith.
Mormons can only be saved if they pay 10% of their income, or have a second annointing, or have a temple sealing


From the manual "Endowed on High" Lesson 4

In the Temple We Receive Ordinances and Make Covenants
Explain that in the temple we receive the ordinances that will enable us to return to the presence of God. We also make covenants to live the laws of the gospel. The following material will provide information about ordinances and covenants in general, and temple ordinances and covenants in particular.


Note: Paying tithing is a requirement for Temple attendance.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:8. Statements by Joseph do not necessarily translate into LDS "beliefs".


What about when those statements are in the canon?

 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Pearl of Great Price


Thanks to Boyd K. Packer for his help in finding an appropriate reference...

Jacob defined the great and abominable church in these words: “Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God” (2 Nephi 10:16).
Boyd K. Packer Ensign March 2008


In the Latter Day Saint movement, the great and abominable church (also called the great whore of all the earth) is an actual and/or metaphorical church described in the Book of Mormon and other revelations by Joseph Smith, Jr. The great and abominable church is identified as being synonymous with the whore of Babylon[1] described in the Book of Revelation[2].

Usage in the Book of Mormon

According to the Book of Mormon, the great and abominable church was formed soon after the life of Jesus and is responsible for killing the Apostles, and for the Great Apostasy [3]. The abominable church was said in the Book of Mormon to have been instrumental in strategically removing "plain and precious" passages and covenants from the Bible to cause confusion to readers.[4].
Some people interpret the reference in the Book of Mormon to the formation of a "great and abominable church" (after the Bible is given to the gentiles) to mean the Catholic church due to the fact that the Roman Catholic church was formed relatively soon after the killing of Jesus' original apostles. However these references in the Book of Mormon are clearly a metaphor for more than just the Catholic church, because according to the Book of Mormon: "...there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth"[5].
The Book of Mormon also states that "The devil founded the great and abominable church,...".[6][7][8]
The great and abominable church, also known as the whore of all the earth, is, "...he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female...for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.".[9] The men who took out "plain and precious"[10] parts out of the Bible, belonged to the great and abominable church.

[edit]Usage in other books

A book entitled Mormon Doctrine, originally published in 1958 by Bruce R. McConkie, contains references linking the Roman Catholic Church to the Whore of Babylon. McConkie became an apostle twelve years after its publication, and was a respected scholar[clarification needed] and authority regarding the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is said that some leaders in the LDS Church at the time urged McConkie not to identify the Roman Catholic Church as such, but the initial publications went out unchanged as McConkie intended.[citation needed] A later edition published in 1966 removed the reference.

A book of LDS scripture entitled Doctrine and Covenants refers to the great and abominable church as either "the church of the devil"[11] or the "whore of babylon"[12]

[edit]References

^ http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... lang=eng#2
^ http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/New Testament/rev/17.5?lang=eng#4
^ http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/13.5-6?lang=eng#4
^ http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/13.26?lang=eng#25
^ http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne ... lang=eng#9
^ http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/13.29?lang=eng#28
^ http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/14?lang=eng#13
^ http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/13.6?lang=eng#5
^ http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/10.16?lang=eng#15
^ http://LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/13.28a?lang=eng#27
^ http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... ang=eng#18
^ http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... lang=eng#2
wiki
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _gdemetz »

Drifting, actually, the Book of Mormon states that there are only two churches, the church of thew Lamb and the great and abominable church, or the church of the devil which consists of all apostate organizations. However, it also mentions that there is one church which is most abominable above all other CHURCHES, and from the description it is very obvious that it is referring to the Catholic church.
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

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gdemetz wrote:Drifting, actually, the Book of Mormon states that there are only two churches, the church of thew Lamb and the great and abominable church, or the church of the devil which consists of all apostate organizations. However, it also mentions that there is one church which is most abominable above all other CHURCHES, and from the description it is very obvious that it is referring to the Catholic church.


I agree that is what the Book of Mormon states...but try telling subby... :rolleyes:
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _richardMdBorn »

gdemetz wrote:Albion, you really need to STUDY the Bible! Paul specifically states the that time (the coming of Christ) would not occur until a GREAT falling away had happened!!! Albion, how many times can you be wrong here?! There are so many more scriptures like that one! Why do you suppose that there was a necessity for the "restitution pf all things"?!? Don't you think that it could have something to do with that great "falling away"?!?
Are you asserting that the LDS church is part of the great falling away?
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _Albion »

Richard, what Mormons don't seem to understand is that there have been many periods of apostasy throughout history but certainly not the full and complete apostasy that by extension Mormons claim from scripture when it uses the term. No doubt there will be more apostasies and since Christ has not come yet there is still time for another. Sad to say that apostasy is alive in well in areas such as Europe where church affiliation is at an all time low (less than 5% of people attending church in the UK in the last poll I saw). Even church attendance in the US is not where it was...and Jensen admits that people are leaving the Mormon church in droves at a rate higher than any time in its history.

Mormonism at its heart rests on the claims of Smith that there was a complete and full apostasy and that low and behold he was the man to do what Christ couldn't do... "keep a whole church together". It is really these two issues that should almost exclusively be discussed because without these points being true Mormon claims are essentially undermined. They are the great underpinning lies of Mormonism that hold the whole system together.
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _gdemetz »

Albion, this was a GREAT FALLING AWAY which Paul was speaking of! The church was "driven into the wilderness for 1260 years until it was finally restored again as part of the restitution of ALL things!!! Also, this was not a failure of Jesus Christ as you have stated! However, it was a great apostasy in which the "beast made war with the saints and overcame them," for 1260 years! The beast won the battle, but not the war!!!
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

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gdemetz wrote:Albion, this was a GREAT FALLING AWAY which Paul was speaking of! The church was "driven into the wilderness for 1260 years until it was finally restored again as part of the restitution of ALL things!!! Also, this was not a failure of Jesus Christ as you have stated! However, it was a great apostasy in which the "beast made war with the saints and overcame them," for 1260 years! The beast won the battle, but not the war!!!


Why has the Church fallen away from the teachings of the Church that Joseph restored?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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Re: The magic "twinkling" of Apostate Christendom

Post by _subgenius »

Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:Albion, this was a GREAT FALLING AWAY which Paul was speaking of! The church was "driven into the wilderness for 1260 years until it was finally restored again as part of the restitution of ALL things!!! Also, this was not a failure of Jesus Christ as you have stated! However, it was a great apostasy in which the "beast made war with the saints and overcame them," for 1260 years! The beast won the battle, but not the war!!!


Why has the Church fallen away from the teachings of the Church that Joseph restored?

fallen away or risen from?
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