Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

And now, gdemetz, you have insight into my faith and my works. I commend you for "trying" to keep the commandments but sadly you will never become perfect by doing so because it is not possible for you to do so. "If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." said John, speaking to believers not to unbelievers.

I am still awaiting your definition of justification.

[_gdemetz]

[non-Celestial language deleted]! O I never stated that there was no grace involved in our salvation! I already explained that clearly!

Albion, you are contradicting yourself! Christ commands us to be perfect, but you state that that is an impossible commandment for us to keep! That is absolutely false! Christ is not a fool, and He would not give us a commandment which we had no hope in keeping! Here are so simple things that I hope you two will be4 able to grasp!

Grace: Through the atonement of Christ ll mankind will be resurrected, which would otherwise no be possible. Through the atonement of Christ, those who exercise faith which is alive through their works, and keep the commandments as Christ stated. become JUSTIFIED! These become "the just made perfect" and inherit the third heaven which Paul mentions! They need to become perfect since "no unclean thing" can dwell there! How do they become perfect? They become perfect by being sanctified by the Holy Ghost! How? The Holy Ghost comes upon them permanently so they become without sin forever and can "speak with the tongue of angels" who "speak by the power of the Holy Ghost!"

[_Albion]

In a previous post, gdemetz, you said that the salvation promised through faith was resurrection. I would point out that since all mankind will be resurrected, whether they have faith in Christ or not, this clearly demonstrates that the salvation scripture talks about is not just resurrection which is only a partial salvation. I am glad that we do at least agree, almost, on the term "justification" but I notice that you add the words "the just" "made perfect". I think that puts a slight difference on your definition.....of course if they are just they are made perfect. This is the perfection, or holiness that Jesus is talking about but it does not in any way come through our own efforts. "But now a righteousness from God, APART FROM LAW, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness FROM GOD comes through Faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (God's perfection or holiness) and are JUSTIFIED 9this is the perfection Jesus required) freely by his GRACE through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 3:21-24

I have quoted these verses before but they are important since they make things very clear... perhaps you can point out to me where it says that justification comes through personal effort...it just isn't there no matter how much you wish to extrapolate something from it to demonstrate your point. If a person is made JUST ( justified) by faith, no amount of works will make him more just.

"Now when a man work, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who JUSTIFIES the wicked (not the already just), his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4: 4-6

I know where you are coming from, gdemetz, but it is not from the Bible. There are three degrees of glory in the Olympics....gold, silver or bronze which are awarded to the victorious for their efforts. But we are not in a competition, gdemetz, because Jesus has already won the prize (complete and full salvation) which he shares freely and as a gift with those who have faith and trust in him.

[_jo1952]

There are two men who were called "perfect" in the Bible.

Genesis 6:9 (KJV)

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
****
Job 1:1 (KJV)

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
****

However, Jesus teaches that Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:48 (KJV)

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
****

Meanwhile Jesus does not even call Himself "good". He teaches that there is only one who is "good"; and that is God:

Matthew 19:17 (KJV)

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
****

Satan used to be perfect in his ways:

Ezekiel 28:14-15 (KJV)

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
****

The Bible does say that the Lord's "work" is perfect:

Deuteronomy 32:4 (KJV)

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
****

Here are some other passages which come from the Old Testament concerning the commandment to be perfect; however none who are being taught or talked about are called perfect:

Genesis 17:1 (KJV)

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
****

Deuteronomy 18:13 (KJV)

13 Thou shalt be perfect with [before] the Lord thy God.
****

1 Kings 8:61 (KJV)

Let your heart therefore be perfect with [before] the Lord our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
****

1 Chronicles 28:9 (KJV)

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
****

Psalm 101:6 (KJV)

Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.
****

Here are some other passages which come from the New Testament concerning the commandment to be perfect:

Romans 12:2 (KJV)

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
****

Philippians 3:15 (KJV)

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
****

James 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
****

John 17:23 (KJV)

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
****

2 Corinthians 13:11 (KJV)

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
****

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (KJV)

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect [does NOT say WILL be perfect], thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
****

Revelation 3:2 (KJV)

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
****

The word "perfect" means to be made complete; to be repaired, restored.

Becoming perfect takes time and effort; Jesus has prepared the way for us to become perfect.....but He does not make us perfect. He continually taught us to keep the commandments. Why? They are the method - the tools- by which we become perfect; how we are made complete, repaired and restored. To be "re"paired and "re"stored indicates that we were complete at some other time and place. We are also taught to be "re"born - and only those who are born of the Spirit are able to see the Kingdom of God; to be again complete, repaired, restored - able to once more become One with the Father and with Christ.

Accepting Christ is NOT a commandment. Think about THAT!!! If it is NOT a commandment to accept Christ, then where is the sin for NOT accepting Him??!! Where there is no law/commandment, there is NO SIN!!!

Nevertheless, if we choose to accept Him, we are given the commandment to be perfect. If accepting Christ made us perfect, there would be no commandment given to be perfect. Christ provides commandments which are tools to help us become perfect. Keeping the commandments prepares us to have All Truth revealed to us. Thus, He provides the way for us to progress until such time as we have evolved to become complete and One with Father and with Christ.

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Obviously there are different definitions of the term perfect. The OED defines perfect as : having all the required elements, qualities, or characteristics; free from any flaw, faultless; complete, absolute. Good luck with achieving any of that by your own effort as it pertains to salvation. The section of Matthew 5 in which this admonition is given is a section dealing with love for our enemies and the perfection he is speaking of is the perfection of love....the supreme virtue as demonstrated by God and which we are admonished to seek after. I have been fortunate in my life to have known many people who lived their lives with a great sense of love for others, some of them LDS people. It is a wonderful virtue to seek and to cultivate....but even the most loving person still must demonstrate faith in Christ to be seen as sinless, justified, before God. Being loving, as great a virtue as it is, is not enough on its own.

[_jo1952]

Obviously there are different definitions of the term perfect. The OED defines perfect as : having all the required elements, qualities, or characteristics; free from any flaw, faultless; complete, absolute. Good luck with achieving any of that by your own effort as it pertains to salvation. The section of Matthew 5 in which this admonition is given is a section dealing with love for our enemies and the perfection he is speaking of is the perfection of love....the supreme virtue as demonstrated by God and which we are admonished to seek after. I have been fortunate in my life to have known many people who lived their lives with a great sense of love for others, some of them LDS people. It is a wonderful virtue to seek and to cultivate....but even the most loving person still must demonstrate faith in Christ to be seen as sinless, justified, before God. Being loving, as great a virtue as it is, is not enough on its own.

Hi Albion,

I didn't use the OED as my source for the definition of "perfect"; I used both the Hebrew and the Greek definitions as outlined by Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, as they are the traditional languages of the Old Testament and New Testament.

As you can see, I did not only use one passage to support what I believe the Bible is teaching about the commandment to be perfect. Do not misunderstand my use of Holy Scripture to support the commandment to be perfect with any type of attempt on my part to diminish what Christ has done for us. My purpose in presenting so many passages is to help you understand where my beliefs come from - which, as you can see, DO come directly from Scripture. I have purposely used only the Bible since that is the Holy Canon you use.

I know that you have never claimed to know everything. I am, though, trying to offer more understanding than you do currently have. Isn't that what Paul taught us to do? Also, do not confuse everything I share with you as being doctrine taught by the LDS Church. I'm pretty sure that some, if not many, of my beliefs would raise at least an eyebrow or two or hundreds.....at Church. If what I share happens to coincide with what the Church teaches, that is because the Holy Spirit has taught me that same part of Truth. If what I share does NOT coincide with what the Church teaches, this is because the Holy Spirit has taught me parts of Truth beyond what the Church teaches. In either case, it is still the Holy Spirit who has personally revealed to me what I share with others. I do not need to depend upon what a religious institution teaches me; nor do I need to depend upon what Theological Scholars want to teach me. No organized religion, and no teachings of man can save me. So I just don't depend upon them. I share what has been revealed to me in order to edify others. I search out what others have had revealed to them in my continual seeking for Truth. Sometimes I see and hear more parts of Truth when others share with me.

Edited to add: I have found great love in mankind everywhere! I just have to share something that will cause your heart to rejoice. This just happened yesterday. My doctor had sent me to the ER. Just before my name was called, two young men came in carrying a young woman who was in terrible pain and distress. They were all about the same age. She was in too much pain to sit in a chair, so they sat with her on the floor, holding her in their arms. I was so overcome by her distress that I wanted to give up my place so that she could be seen immediately, but the Charge Nurse assured me she would be seen in just a minute or so. It was not until I was fortunate enough to be released (after only an hour or so), that I learned that those two young men did not even know this young woman. They has seen her distress and immediately came to her assistance; just like ministering angels. And here I had thought they must have all been close friends due to the way the young men were taking such loving care of her.

I was overwhelmed and thanked Father that I had been able to witness such loving kindness being rendered to someone in such critical need. In fact, I wept. The young men, once they were certain she had been safely admitted, and a friend of hers was with her, finally left the Hospital.

Peace and blessings, Albion!!!

jo

[_gdemetz]

Good posts JO! I hope that they sink in!

[_gdemetz]

By the way, Albion, there are THREE heavens. If not, then why would Paul mention a third heaven?!?

[_Albion]

Jo, I prefer to think of perfection in terms of holiness and since I believe only God to be truly holy I do not think it is an attainable goal in the sense that he is holy. Even if we humans think we can live rules and regulations to the letter scripture makes it clear that we cannot. We may think we can conquer sin, rise above it, but I think we delude ourselves...who among us can ever say that we have never envied, never fudged the truth, never cheated and so on and so on? And if we are honest we know that we continue to do it? . And remember, to be guilty of one infraction of the law is to be guilty of all. What is our human effort to keep the law and battle against the sin we continually commit all about? Surely it's about finding peace with God...a right relationship with him. Well, I believe the good news of the gospel is that Jesus has provided a way to that peace...he has overcome sin and death which is its reward and through faith in him we share in his overcoming and are made right before God...just as if we never sinned in the first place. We are justified by faith, not by our works...so if we are perceived by God to be as if we are without sin, what then is the purpose of works in the equation? Will they make us more justified...will God look upon us as more justified...are there degrees of justification. As I have tried so hard to convey on this board....Christians should be engaged in good works and keeping the commandments but they are the fruits of a redeemed sinner's life and not the means to become redeemed. Now I do understand how Mormon theology adds on the idea of exaltation to some higher heaven but I cannot accept that as Biblical. So if the salvation that faith in Jesus gives is only resurrection what does faith have to do with it since everyone will be resurrected with or without faith?

[_ludwigm]

There are two men who were called "perfect" in the Bible.

Genesis 6:9 (KJV)

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
****

Noah should be perfect!!! He is like trinity, three in one person.

Noah, The Great Preacher of Righteousness
...
While speaking in 1839 to members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and some Seventies prior to their leaving for missionary service, the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “Noah, who is Gabriel, … stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven.”
...
(Notes 13) Joseph Fielding Smith has summarized the argument for Noah being this Elias as follows: “Joseph Smith revealed that Gabriel was Noah; Luke declared that it was the angel Gabriel who appeared to Zacharias and Mary, and the Lord has declared that Elias appeared to Zacharias and Joseph Smith. Therefore, Elias is Noah” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 3:141).

We should have a "Who Is Who in Mormonism".
- Noah is Gabriel is Elias
- Adam is Michael
- horse is tapir