Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_jo1952]

Here is one for You [offtopic], because of Olympic:

For some others, visit Wulff and Morgenthaler!
They have one for every day.

Hahahahaha! I think we share the same sick sense of humor!! That was great!!

Apparently You have a bad taste selecting the threads to read.

I agree!!

We, hungarians don't use caps for titles.
Elvis is a king of something, a traitor is one judas, someone who is skeptical is called a doubting thomas.
No way to misunderstand. Names are capitalized, titles are not.
In stupid english*, one can confuse.

*(I don't bash Your language. Languages can not regularize, they grow as weed. The grammar is not for rule, it is a description of the common usage only. For example, capitalizing of the name of a language or people make no sense. I am not Hungarian, I am hungarian. A loved pet is a dog or a cat, not Dog, not Cat.)

No offense is taken. I happen to agree that English (english?) is an extremely difficult language. There are way too many rules, and way too many broken rules (that needed to be broken) in order for english to be understood.

For instance, if one man and ten women escape after shipwreck to an island, he is an adam...

Yes......and how come he is such a lucky adam??? Why couldn't there be one adam (the first man to reach the island), as well as nine other men, and only one "eve"??!!!! I like this second version much better.

...but I hope You know this is two different name of one and same man...

Yes, and neither should be confused with Elisha who was the Prophet after Elijah (Elias).

He was right because he was not THAT PERSON!

Indeed! However, my belief is that John the Baptist was one of the bodies (or tabernacles) which housed the spirit/soul of the Prophet Elijah (Elias). Therefore "person" makes up the physical body. But the spirit/soul is NOT a physical body. A body decays, returns to dust, and ceases to exist; a spirit does not decay and cease to exist.

No. He taught that John the Baptist is one of elijahes, he is one who works same way as Elijah did...

I would agree that the interpretation can be taken in more than one way. In fact, we could both be wrong; or even both be correct.

multiple probations - which is also known as reincarnation

(# represents a word doesn't fit to celestial forum, that is, a less polite one)

the spirit which dwelled in his physical body had also dwelled in the physical body of Elijah due to the veil of forgetfulness #
spirit beings, as they progress through various incarnations #

If you want to, you could start a thread in the Terrestrial forum so we can discuss our thoughts on this. Just let me know if you do. You could send me a private message to inform me.

I have water filter in my brain.

I am relieved to hear this!!!

Many blessings to you!!

jo

[_jo1952]

I'm not convinced about universal exaltation though. I believe everyone will be saved in a sense that they will be resurrected and not cease to exist, even those that completely reject and rebel against God and choose perdition. In the case of perdition, they will have no glory, the second death will take them as they must wallow in their sins, and they will be with Satan. However, I draw the line at exaltation. Even though everyone will acknowledge Jesus (even the demons acknowledge him), that doesn't mean they will be willing to follow him and do as the Lord commands and requires. I've mentioned this to MnG too, but I don't think she understood what I was saying about this. I think you can choose to progress in the next life, but equally - I believe you can choose to not progress or even fall. And because of this freedom of will, I can't get behind the idea that everyone will attain higher and higher degrees of exaltation.

Hi Tobin!

I have gone through all of those thoughts, just like you. It has taken me a while to receive the personal revelations and understandings as I currently perceive them. Even now, my understanding about what I have shared about this subject (as well as others) continues to evolve.

It is difficult for us to comprehend "time" outside of what we experience as "time" in the physical world. However, the concept of the Eternities (and I had a startling revelation about "eternities" when Joseph Smith used eternity in a plural manner) opens up an even longer length of something we cannot currently comprehend. Anyway, I have come to the point where I do not close my mind to ANY possibility. Certainly even a look at a singular "eternity" seems like it would provide enough God-time to accomplish so much more than we can wrap our heads around right now.

I also take into consideration that there are worlds without end. As I see it, what is going on in our world and on our earth, has been going on for eternities. Therefore, shatterings and the need for the healing of those shatterings, are going on elsewhere---not just on our earth. They are all at their own point in the process of their healing. As everything that is happening here on our earth is a pattern of what is/has/and will be happening both temporally and spiritually throughout the eternities, I believe that shatterings have been healed in other worlds. Our own personal progressing which shows that we are each individually at our own point in our journey, is a reflection and pattern of what is happening everywhere in the eternities.

Anyway, this has all come together in support of what has been revealed to me (similar to what you have already shared in your previous post...though it was presented within the framework of the specific topic you were discussing).

Love and blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

When is eternal not eternal? While I do not believe a belief in universalism is relative specifically to personal salvation, I do not accept it as being Biblical. My dictionary defines the word "eternal" as: Lasting or existing forever; tedious, lengthy or persistent; valid for all time; essentially unchanging: eternal truths: everlasting.

Jesus speaking: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46. Perhaps your definition of the word eternal is something else.

[_Tobin]

When is eternal not eternal? While I do not believe a belief in universalism is relative specifically to personal salvation, I do not accept it as being Biblical. My dictionary defines the word "eternal" as: Lasting or existing forever; tedious, lengthy or persistent; valid for all time; essentially unchanging: eternal truths: everlasting.

Jesus speaking: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46. Perhaps your definition of the word eternal is something else.

Hi Albion,

We are talking about concepts beyond that. It is unfathomable that a God that created our spirits would punish us eternally. Why not just cause us to cease to exist instead? However, in the Mormon view, our spirits were formed, not created out of nothing. So God can not cause our spirits to cease to exist. When I'm speaking to jo about universal exaltation, that is where punishment (or disappointment) comes in. Those that obtain a lesser degree of glory (or are perdition are receive no glory) are punished merely because they are not in the presence of God. I have a hard time believing all will obtain the degree of glory where one is constantly in the association with God unless one is willing to follow God and do as he asks. And since we have freedom of will (and can't be forced), it seems to me that can not be universally true.

[_Franktalk]

When is eternal not eternal? While I do not believe a belief in universalism is relative specifically to personal salvation, I do not accept it as being Biblical. My dictionary defines the word "eternal" as: Lasting or existing forever; tedious, lengthy or persistent; valid for all time; essentially unchanging: eternal truths: everlasting.

Jesus speaking: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46. Perhaps your definition of the word eternal is something else.

Let us say that we are sent to hell for eternity. I am of the opinion that once there I can repent of what I did and the sentence is now changed to what justice demands. So eternity is eternity if you wish it to be. Are we not told that as we judge so shall we be judged? How easy is it for us to hate someone and wish them harm and the next day we repent of those thoughts and try and mend those fences. Are we not a type for all that follows? Are we not playing out what we really already know? I think a bunch of our premortal existence comes with us as we live in the flesh. We already know.

[_gdemetz]

God gives His answer for what is meant by everlasting punishment in D&C 19. As Brigham Young stated; there will always be a hell as long as there are those who need to be sent there, but that does not mean that one person would have to be there forever. Also, there is a big misconception concerning the "lake of fire" referred to as hell. That is a figurative expression which comes from the word "Gehenna," a valley south of Jerusalem where trash and dead animals were thrown and fires were constantly burning. The prophets used this symbolism to represent what we refer to as hell. There are two hells mentioned in the scriptures; "and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." The first represents the spirit hell prior to the resurrection, and the second represents the final hell or "outer darkness" as Jude refers to it, where the devil and his angels along with the sons of perdition are cast.

[_jo1952]

Let us say that we are sent to hell for eternity. I am of the opinion that once there I can repent of what I did and the sentence is now changed to what justice demands. So eternity is eternity if you wish it to be. Are we not told that as we judge so shall we be judged? How easy is it for us to hate someone and wish them harm and the next day we repent of those thoughts and try and mend those fences. Are we not a type for all that follows? Are we not playing out what we really already know? I think a bunch of our premortal existence comes with us as we live in the flesh. We already know.

Hi Franktalk,

I would add that part of the definition of eternity is described as an "age". This is the part of the definition which I believe is how an individual participates in what is called "hell", or the "pit of fire and brimstone". I also believe that the pit of fire and brimstone is something which exists eternally for the benefit of mankind - in order to cleanse them from unforgiven sins. As you mentioned, this is how Justice can be served. Once Justice IS served, a spirit is released from their "part" in the pit. Indeed, if a person is committed to the pit of fire and brimstone must stay there forever and ever, then this would be an indication to me that Justice can NEVER actually be fully served; i.e., they will never be able to "pay the last farthing". For Justice "to be served" means to me that there will eventually be an end to the punishment for unforgiven sins. If not, then how can this be called "Justice" in the first place, if it can never be "served". Therefore, the firey pit can go on and on and on. However, spirits will enter and leave it once their sentence has been served.

Blessings,

jo

[_Drifting]

Let us say that we are sent to hell for eternity. I am of the opinion that once there I can repent of what I did and the sentence is now changed to what justice demands. So eternity is eternity if you wish it to be. Are we not told that as we judge so shall we be judged? How easy is it for us to hate someone and wish them harm and the next day we repent of those thoughts and try and mend those fences. Are we not a type for all that follows? Are we not playing out what we really already know? I think a bunch of our premortal existence comes with us as we live in the flesh. We already know.

Hi Franktalk,

I would add that part of the definition of eternity is described as an "age". This is the part of the definition which I believe is how an individual participates in what is called "hell", or the "pit of fire and brimstone". I also believe that the pit of fire and brimstone is something which exists eternally for the benefit of mankind - in order to cleanse them from unforgiven sins. As you mentioned, this is how Justice can be served. Once Justice IS served, a spirit is released from their "part" in the pit. Indeed, if a person is committed to the pit of fire and brimstone must stay there forever and ever, then this would be an indication to me that Justice can NEVER actually be fully served; i.e., they will never be able to "pay the last farthing". For Justice "to be served" means to me that there will eventually be an end to the punishment for unforgiven sins. If not, then how can this be called "Justice" in the first place, if it can never be "served". Therefore, the firey pit can go on and on and on. However, spirits will enter and leave it once their sentence has been served.

Blessings,

jo

Jo...I hope you are sitting down because...I think I agree with your opinion about hell (even if I tend not to believe it exists).

Mormonism teaches that this life is a minuscule brief interlude of a proving ground in the grand scheme of things. If God exists, and He is a just God, then that cannot be consistent with a being that delivers an eternity of punishment for wrongdoing during such a tiny sojourn.
The punishment (including time to be served) will fit the crime...

[_Albion]

The demands of justice require that we should all pay the price for our sinfulness...but God in his grace sent his Son, God himself in all his holiness and righteousness, to meet those demands at Calvary where he paid in full our sin debt and satisfied justice. The debt is paid in full, justice has been fulfilled, and all we have to do to receive it is to believe and trust in the one who provided it, living lives of repentance and obedience. Wishing and wanting there to be a second chance is not supported by scripture which can be a stubborn thing when it flies in the face of our own ideas.

[_jo1952]

The demands of justice require that we should all pay the price for our sinfulness...but God in his grace sent his Son, God himself in all his holiness and righteousness, to meet those demands at Calvary where he paid in full our sin debt and satisfied justice. The debt is paid in full, justice has been fulfilled, and all we have to do to receive it is to believe and trust in the one who provided it, living lives of repentance and obedience. Wishing and wanting there to be a second chance is not supported by scripture which can be a stubborn thing when it flies in the face of our own ideas.

Hi Albion!

This sounds very poetic and beautiful. However, many things have been dismissed which are also taught by Jesus. Before I forget, I also wanted to ask some questions in order to be clear on what your belief looks like when applied to mankind. Your belief system concludes that justice has already been satisfied by Christ, and that all one needs to do is believe and trust in the one who provided it, living lives of repentance and obedience.

Let us then look at Adam and Eve. Do you think they believed and trusted in the one who would eventually provide the Atonement? Do you think that once they were removed from the Garden of Eden that they endeavoured to live lives of repentance and obedience? My answer to these questions would be yes. Now, part of the punishment for Adam and Eve's transgression was that their bodies would suffer physical death. Likewise, the fate of all mankind would share in that punishment; i.e., all mankind would suffer the physical death of their body.

If Christ's Atonement has now satisfied Justice as you claim, then why are people still suffering physical death? The punishment of physical death is still in force. Therefore, it appears that not ALL of Justice was satisfied. What are your thoughts about this?

Now to address at least a few of the things taught in the New Testament which appear to have been dismissed through your belief system; thus making these other teachings either unnecessary to have been taught, OR these other teachings reach beyond the scope of your current understanding of Justice and Mercy:

* The Beatitudes; especially things like: "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy". However, according to your belief system, Mercy is a free gift given as long as you "believe and trust in the one who provided it, living lives of repentance and obedience" (which, by the way, does not sound "free" as long as there are strings attached to your own belief) Also, Mat 5:19-20.

* Those who live by the sword will die by the sword (keep in mind this was said by Jesus at the time He was rebuking Peter who had smote a servant of the High Priest by cutting off his ear).

* Matthew 7:2 (KJV) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

* 1 Peter 4:18 (KJV) And if the righteous scarcely [i.e., with difficulty and with much work] be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Blessings,

jo